DEGREE DISCUSSION

[Armando Ramos]

Looks like Goose is experiencing another manic episode. He's gone from a catatonic stupor to total hypomania.

I see that "Dexter Dexter" is getting under Goose's skin in a major way over there at DD. In fact, he is absolutely destroying the entire Klempner Kluster. Nothing disorients and pisses off the klones faster than such foreign (to them) concepts as "logic," "facts" and "law."

How is it a diploma mill degree if he wrote thousands of pages for it?

1. Just because he wrote a bunch doesn't prove a thing. What were the processes? What supervision did he receive? How was his work evaluated? If he wrote "thousands of pages," wouldn't he--at some point--wonder why he wasn't getting any feedback from anyone?

2. Just because he says he wrote thousands of pages doesn't make it so. In fact, given the diploma mill in question, it is simpler to conclude he did not unless there is evidence to the contrary.

3. An operation is a diploma mill because of its activities, not its customers'.

Or did you already know these things?

You seem to forget that the federal definition of Diploma Mill is a school with "little or no coursework," not "a school without proper supervision" or "a school with underachieving instructors" or whatever you're rambling about.

If he did a lot of work for his degree then it is, by definition, not a diploma mill.

1. Just because he wrote a bunch doesn't prove a thing. What were the processes? What supervision did he receive? How was his work evaluated? If he wrote "thousands of pages," wouldn't he--at some point--wonder why he wasn't getting any feedback from anyone?

I'm totally with you on this, Dr. Rich -- as per my prev. posting. As a partial answer - in its heyday, LaSalle had:

Students: 15,000 approx.
Faculty: ONE

Yes - James "Captain" Kirk's less-than-stellar uh -- Enterprise was indeed a mill. He did 5 years for fraud.

I don't get what you're trying to argue here.

Perhaps you should contact the federal government and see about changing the legal definition of Diploma Mill to "a school with too many students to a single instructor." Because what you are suggesting is not in the definition of Diploma Mill at all.

LaSalle didn't provide classroom instruction. They had students read books and pass exams. So technically there were zero instructors. But I don't see how a lack of classroom instruction makes their academic program a scam.

The Higher Education Opportunity Act defines a diploma mill as follows:

DIPLOMA MILL- The term `diploma mill' means an entity that--

(A)(i) offers, for a fee, degrees, diplomas, or certificates, that may be used to represent to the general public that the individual possessing such an online degree, diploma, or certificate has completed a program of postsecondary education or training; and (ii) requires such individual to complete little or no education or coursework to obtain such degree, diploma, or certificate; and

(B) lacks accreditation by an accrediting agency or association that is recognized as an accrediting agency or association of institutions of higher education (as such term is defined in section 102) by--

(i) the Secretary pursuant to subpart 2 of part H of title IV; or (ii) a Federal agency, State government, or other organization or association that recognizes accrediting agencies or associations.

That's funny. I don't see anything about low quality instructors, too many students to one instructor, lack of supervision, etc.

Clearly anyone who purchases their degree is getting a diploma mill degree. Clearly anyone who is reading books and writing thousands of pages for their degree is not. Are we clear?

The definition is little or no. It's not "because the school was shady in the past" or "the president of the institution did time for tax fraud". Those are definitions of your own imagination. The federal definition is indisputably "little or no education or coursework". The text is very understandable. Nothing about the quality of the instruction, appropriate supervision, or background of the faculty is included. Period.

Kindly stop.

Please address the issue. The official federal and DOE definition for diploma mill is "little or no education or coursework," but you guys are trying to change the definition to a school with:

Lack of Supervision
Low quality instruction
History of the institution
Lack of qualified instructors
High number of students per instructor

So who's right, you guys or the Department of Education?

You're wrong, Gus. The federal government's legal definition is the only meaningful definition here. LaSalle doesn't even meet Webster dictionary's definition of "Diploma Mill."

An institution of higher education operating without supervision of a state or professional agency and granting diplomas which are either fraudulent or because of the lack of proper standards worthless. – Webster's Third New International Dictionary

According to this definition the qualifier is that the school needs to be operating without a license and granting diplomas which are either fraudulent or without proper standards.

However, LaSalle was operating with a state license under the auspices of Louisiana. Therefore, under the definition, it is not a diploma mill.

johann: PS - Incidentally, the proprietor of La Salle was indicted for fraud and sentenced to 5 years in prison, in 1996. So much for the legitimacy.

John: A key fact here, which demolishes dexter's arguments, is that after James Kirk and two of his colleagues were indicted by a federal grand jury on multiple counts of mail fraud, wire fraud, tax fraud, and conspiracy, he pleaded guilty as charged.

It does not matter if James Kirk plead guilty for fraud. The definition is LITTLE OR NO EDUCATION OR COURSEWORK. The definition is not "if the president of the institution ever did time for fraud or tax evasion it's a diploma mill."

If some people did a lot of work for their degree then their degrees are not diploma mill degrees by legal and federal definition. This is absolutely indisputable.

Sorry, Dr. Bear...a criminal conviction means only guilt "beyond a reasonable doubt" not "beyond all possible doubt." I'm sure that will leave D-D enough wiggle room.

Why would I need wiggle room? His case and plea is immaterial to whether the school is a diploma mill. The legal qualifier for diploma mill is a school which requires little or no education coursework. The qualifier is not "if the president committed fraud."

It does not matter if the school was located in a bedroom, had a dog listed as the dean, or ran basket weaving classes. It does not matter if the president defrauded the IRS, stole money from students, or made misrepresentations about his school. So long as the students did a lot of work for their degree then it is not a diploma mill degree. Any judge will agree that your interpretation of the definition is wrong. The definition is not concerned with quality of the material, the ethics or quality of the president, or the quality of the instructors.

Why do you continue to deny basic facts?

The legal qualifier for diploma mill is a school which requires little or no education coursework. The qualifier is not "if the president committed fraud."

I agree. LaSalle University did not REQUIRE any education or coursework, therefore it is a DIPLOMA MILL.

The degrees they gave out for zero work are obviously diploma mill degrees.

The degrees they gave out for lots of coursework are obviously not diploma mill degrees.

Recall, the definition is "little or no". Any degree given out for little or now work is a diploma mill degree. Any degree given out for a lot of work is not.

So long as the students did a lot of work for their degree then it is not a diploma mill degree.

Wait a freakin' minute. Where the hell did you get that definition?

That's the federal definition! Hello! A school which provides degrees for little or no education or coursework is a diploma mill.

Otherwise, it is not.

Why do you continue to deny basic facts?

Seems like you are indeed posting in the correct thread, "Fantasy Land."

Let me share a story...

That's a nice story Gus, but you are wrong once again. A Diploma Mill isn't a school which requires a lot of work and then passes you regardless of what you write or whether you are qualified. A diploma mill is not a school which puts fake grades on your dissertation. A diploma mill isn't a school which willing to change your major with the flick of a wrist. That is all unethical, sure. It might not be a legitimate process, granted. But it is not a diploma mill. A diploma mill is defined as a school which requires LITTLE OR NO EDUCATION OR COURSEWORK. That's how it's defined. That's all it's defined as. This is how the law sees it. There is no denying this. There is no working around this.

Why are you ignoring the legal definition for diploma mill? The law has defined diploma mill very clearly. It's not a school where everyone passes. It's not a school where the president was convicted of fraud. Anyone who continues to maintain these things has clearly not read the definition for Diploma Mill.

Why are you putting your imagination in place of facts? Why do you have such a hard time reading a few sentences in a definition?

Please stop trying to change definitions. You seem to be trying to lump unethical or substandard schools with diploma mills. A diploma mill isn't a school with lousy teachers, bad instruction, easy A's, or criminal presidents. Those are unethical schools. A diploma mill is a school with LITTLE OR NO EDUCATION OR COURSEWORK. What is so infuriatingly hard to understand about that?

If Holbrook did a lot of work for is LaSalle University degree, as he claims, reading books and writing thousands of pages, then he most certainly does not have a diploma mill degree under the eyes of the law. The legal definition has nothing to do with the validity of his education, proper supervision, or ethical instructors. It is chiefly concerned with "little or no".

Any competent judge would agree that Holbrook does not have a diploma mill degree under federal definition. Anyone with an IQ above room temperature knows how to read definitions. I don't know what your problem is.

You never answered my question, Dexter. I guess you don't think a degree from Knightsbridge University is legitimate or has any value.

Let me ask you another question.

Do you really want to be permanently banned from this forum? Please think carefully about this one.

I really have very little tolerance for inanities, trolls, the chronically immature or the galactically stupid. Govern yourself accordingly as you won’t get another warning.

I'm not trolling. I'm telling it how it is.

Your definition of "diploma mill" is clearly in disagreement with the legal and federal definition. Why would you ban someone because you were wrong?

Goose is nearly apoplectic and threatening to ban him for heresy. Dexter quotes federal law. Goose quotes fictional movie characters.

Kind of funny to see those old DI asshole-swarm tactics revived at DD. Threats of banishment, personal insults and even wails of "troll" by the troll Huffman, but never any substantive rebuttals. Score a clean knockout for Dexter!

[bigfoot]

I recently read the paper on the internet where Contreras "defines" what is a legitimate, (or rather legal) degree granting institution in the U.S.A.). It was quite amusing to watch him flip-flop from past entries, whereby he would constantly "crow", that any school that is "NOT" regionally accredited is a "diploma mill"..and will be treated as such in the state of Oregon. With research he discovers that gee...guess what?...CA State Approved colleges/universities are LEGAL and VALID! Even the constitution bares out this fact.

Boy-oh-boy! Guess when that judge sent ol' Alan back to take those remedial workshops on defamation law, something must have sunk into that thick brain of his. A light bulb flashed on, and guess what.....he saw the "LIGHT"! He now is AWARE, that CA STATE APPROVED schools are legal and valid. In fact, they are every bit as legal and valid as those outstanding institutions of higher learning such as the University of Phoenix and Capella U. Funny, it never seems that Contreras or Bear/Klempner, scrutinize, or have anything critical to say about these RA schools, despite the fact they have been sued by many students for less than wonderful practices in handling student loans as well as providing (what many claim) is SUBSTANDARD education. And the fact that they are splattered all over the internet, being lambasted in many, many blogs, by outraged former students, who feel they were misled by the telemarketers at these schools, who pose as faculty and student advisers. Guess in this instance you don't get what you pay for, which was a solid education, with legitimate academic advisers, who genuinely care about the progress and development of their students. For shame. Guess that RA status means they are exempt from any criticism or scrutiny from the trifecta of distance education, despite the less than wonderful way they have comported themselves in the academic world of distance education. Keep up the great work Armando...love you're well crafted and cogent posts.

[WilliamW]

Score a clean knockout for Dexter!

A very thorough ass-kicking administered by Dexter Dexter on the assembled klones--Doogle, Johann the Idiot Fool, Klempner, Nosebutt and Goose. Apparently suggesting that they read and apply federal law to their fatuous dogma was just too powerful a concept for them to comprehend without coming further unhinged.

[Virtual Bison]

I recently read the paper on the internet where Contreras "defines" what is a legitimate, (or rather legal) degree granting institution in the U.S.A.). It was quite amusing to watch him flip-flop from past entries, whereby he would constantly "crow", that any school that is "NOT" regionally accredited is a "diploma mill"..and will be treated as such in the state of Oregon. With research he discovers that gee...guess what?...CA State Approved colleges/universities are LEGAL and VALID! Even the constitution bares out this fact.

Boy-oh-boy! Guess when that judge sent ol' Alan back to take those remedial workshops on defamation law, something must have sunk into that thick brain of his. A light bulb flashed on, and guess what.....he saw the "LIGHT"! He now is AWARE, that CA STATE APPROVED schools are legal and valid. In fact, they are every bit as legal and valid as those outstanding institutions of higher learning such as the University of Phoenix and Capella U. Funny, it never seems that Contreras or Bear/Klempner, scrutinize, or have anything critical to say about these RA schools, despite the fact they have been sued by many students for less than wonderful practices in handling student loans as well as providing (what many claim) is SUBSTANDARD education. And the fact that they are splattered all over the internet, being lambasted in many, many blogs, by outraged former students, who feel they were misled by the telemarketers at these schools, who pose as faculty and student advisers. Guess in this instance you don't get what you pay for, which was a solid education, with legitimate academic advisers, who genuinely care about the progress and development of their students. For shame. Guess that RA status means they are exempt from any criticism or scrutiny from the trifecta of distance education, despite the less than wonderful way they have comported themselves in the academic world of distance education. Keep up the great work Armando...love you're well crafted and cogent posts.

You got it. Thats how the Accreditation Mafia works. It begins with John Bear determining by his own standards what constitutes a "diploma mill" and what does not. Next Contreras posts on his website (financed by the State of Oregon) that any such school constitutes a mill. Finally they use their attack dog, Gollin to hound the schools owners and anyone who uses a degree from such a school. And to top it off, you have that Huffman character acting as the propagandist for the Mafia.

[Don Dresden]

When is Goose more irrelevant--when he's not posting at all or when he's posting all the latest about events in Bulgaria, Serbia, Azerbaijan, Pakistan and Outer Space?

Is he just trying to challenge Gollin's record for most posts with no replies?

[Travis Bickle]

Someday a real rain will come and wash all this scum off the streets.

[Don Dresden]

When I saw the headline I figured they had to be talking about "The Gang" at DD.  No, just the other gang, the one in DC. 

But notice how the techniques are similar.  Make up a hysterically ludicrous lie, like "A bunch of doctors with unaccredited degrees are killing people!!"  Then the "smarter, morally superior" take action to solve the non-existent "problem," e.g., legislation to make unaccredited degrees illegal.  It's the very same process and it's the very same kind of people engaged in it.

Socialists, Narcissists, And Psychopaths

Like all evil in the world, it begins with a lie. A lie that a group of elites can set up a socialist utopia without guns. A lie that one group is smarter, wiser, morally superior to all others—narcissists, in other words. A lie that a group of elites create their own morality—psychopaths, we call them.

The lie that began this road of destruction and death was simply that the Mexican drug cartels get most of their weapons from American gun dealers. Ninety percent, to quote our Commander-in-Chief. Of course, this number was a fantasy. But fantasies can become realities with some creativity. Simply encourage American gun dealers to sell to drug cartel front men with the lie that the weapons would be tracked and intercepted. Then let them walk into Mexico. What’s a couple dead Americans and a few hundred Mexicans dead in order to achieve a socialist utopia without guns? For narcissists, socialists, and psychopaths—nothing.

The last in Obama Files’ ‘Tales from Fast and Furious’ video series.