Why Diploma Mills exist

[dooglearse]

I just wondered where your buddy was.  You know like Quickdraw McGraw had?  You guys were like Siamese twins.

Dennis, all bitterness aside, I have no idea what you're talking about. What are you talking about?

[Dennis Ruhl]

Dennis, all bitterness aside, I have no idea what you're talking about. What are you talking about?

There's never been any bitterness. It's just that you and your friend used to lead crusades against websites to which you objected as a tag team. Are you sure you can handle it alone?

[dooglearse]

Dennis, all bitterness aside, I have no idea what you're talking about. What are you talking about?

There's never been any bitterness.  It's just that you and your friend used to lead crusades against websites to which you objected as a tag team.  Are you sure you can handle it alone?

I don't know of anyone else. I work alone. Who do you have in mind?

[Little Arminius]

Dennis, all bitterness aside, I have no idea what you're talking about. What are you talking about?

There's never been any bitterness.  It's just that you and your friend used to lead crusades against websites to which you objected as a tag team.  Are you sure you can handle it alone?

I don't know of anyone else. I work alone. Who do you have in mind?

I'm wondering, too. Is Dennis alluding to fellow Union grad, Steve Levicoff? Or perhaps Gus Sainz, administrator of DD and a rapid opponent of all non-RA schools? Could it be John Bear, the one-time mentor and iconic figure of all things DL? The list could go on and on but the relationship gets increasingly weaker the further out we go.  ( e.g. Rich and Vinny123 because they both like discussing the pros and cons of DETC doctorates. )

[RespectableGent]

Excelsior is private.

Excelsior's immediate predecessor Regents College certainly was a public institution.

Read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_...f_New_York

Up until 1998 it was owned and operated by the University of the State of New York, a state run accrediting agency. I assume that the money is still flowing to the same people.

The Wikipedia page suggests it changed names to Excelsior because the the public connection was giving the state a bad image by handing out diplomas to so many people.

Your concept of "substandard" is certainly "nonstandard," which is what you likely mean.

What is the difference between substandard and nonstandard?

If "diploma mills" are schools which require short-term study then Career Schools most definitely fit the bill.

From what I've read the Career School boom occurred immediately following World War II, with hundreds of schools starting operation, catering to low-income people wishing to enhance their skillset.

I would rate an average town's unaccredited Career School as higher quality than a shithole like Excelsior, where one can obtain a degree in under three hours.

These examples, of course, have nothing to do with the issue.

If substandard schools are the issue, then Careers Schools certainly play a part and have a say in what "is" and "is not" legitimate.

Also, there are several accrediting agencies that handle career and vocational schools. Finally, many career and vocational schools are approved for Title IV.

Career and Vocational schools may be gaining acceptance, but many traditional accreditators who claim to accept Career and Vocational Schools for accreditation still mandate that a substantial education requirement must be supplied, and time to graduation must be comparable to traditional schools.

In order to earn degrees, they should finish complete curricula. But those subjects are also available from career and vocational schools. So?

Most Career Schools cater to a specific niche.

A Beauty College would not supply a substantive curriculum, and typically provide a short time-to-graduation.

I've never heard of a Beauty College providing four to eight years of instruction. Should a beautician spend four to eight years learning how to apply makeup to one's face? I think not.

Truck Driving colleges, and other such schools might also provide short time-to-graduation rates.

A technical or engineering college, on the other hand, might be substantive enough to stretch out into a standard full length curriculum. But even there exists shades of gray.

For example, Rennslear Polytechnic in New York is a world-class technical school, teaching students the fundamentals from circuitry to programming. Curriculums are full length.

A place like the unaccredited ITT Tech, on the other hand, mainly caters to those wishing to become average company techs.

Please provide even one example where this has occurred. Name one school that has been driven out of business for the reasons you cite.

Kennedy-Western/Warren National was driven out of business by slanderous remarks from the Chyeene Herald and the United States Senate, despite its curriculum being substantive enough to be debatable. Students did learn something far beyond nominal from the course material. I would hold a Kennedy Western credential as having greater value than anything available from the Easy Three.

[Dennis Ruhl]

Or perhaps Gus Sainz, administrator of DD and a rapid opponent of all non-RA schools?

Bingo! I'm thinking close to 10 years back. They came in packs - well a pack of 2.

[Geoff Vankirk]

Or perhaps Gus Sainz, administrator of DD and a rapid opponent of all non-RA schools?

Bingo!  I'm thinking close to 10 years back.  They came in packs - well a pack of 2.

I'm guessing that Little Arminius meant Sainz is a rabid opponent of unaccredited universities. Sainz doesn't do anything rapidly, including paying his bills.

[dooglearse]

Excelsior's immediate predecessor Regents College certainly was a public institution.

First, the statement was made in the present tense, not the past. Second, the private version was known as Regents College, not the previous public iteration. Again, you have it wrong. The string:

Regents External Degree Program (public)
Regents College Degree Program (public)
Regents College (private)
Excelsior College (private)

The statement that Excelsior was funneling its receipts into the state's coffers was flat wrong. This bit of attempted subterfuge doesn't change that.

Up until 1998 it was owned and operated by the University of the State of New York, a state run accrediting agency. I assume that the money is still flowing to the same people.

Amazingly wrong. As a non-profit university, Excelsior retains its funds and reinvests them into the operation. While I don't have the figures at hand, it is likely they operate at a loss and make up the difference through grants, donations, etc. There is no money flowing to the state.

The Wikipedia page suggests it changed names to Excelsior because the the public connection was giving the state a bad image by handing out diplomas to so many people.

Nice. But it has been operating for more than 35 years!

A place like the unaccredited ITT Tech, on the other hand, mainly caters to those wishing to become average company techs.

I clipped most of your comment, but I couldn't pass up this one. ITT Tech is not "unaccredited." You get a lot of your "facts" wrong, you know.

Kennedy-Western/Warren National was driven out of business by slanderous remarks from the Chyeene Herald and the United States Senate, despite its curriculum being substantive enough to be debatable. Students did learn something far beyond nominal from the course material.

This is impressively wrong. KW-U operated in California without any substantive oversight or approval from 1982 until the mid-1990's. Once that state got around to them, it ran KW-U out of business. (It continued to operate from California while using various mailing addresses in other states.) Hawaii pushed them out, as did South Dakota. Finally, they settled "in" Wyoming, still operating from California. After a couple of scandalous outings of its graduates and educational processes--and after its failed bid for accreditation from DETC--they closed their doors. Must not have been TOO "far beyond nominal."

I would hold a Kennedy Western credential as having greater value than anything available from the Easy Three.

Your prerogative of course. Good luck with that practice.

[RespectableGent]

Regents External Degree Program (public)
Regents College Degree Program (public)
Regents College (private)
Excelsior College (private)

The statement that Excelsior was funneling its receipts into the state's coffers was flat wrong. This bit of attempted subterfuge doesn't change that.

The State of New York obviously didn't just give away one of its money maker colleges to a private entity.

Hmm, I will take the safe side and agree with the Wiki page that the state turned it into a private entity because it was devaluing the reputation of New York by handing out so many diplomas.

Amazingly wrong. As a non-profit university, Excelsior retains its funds and reinvests them into the operation. While I don't have the figures at hand, it is likely they operate at a loss and make up the difference through grants, donations, etc. There is no money flowing to the state.

Oh sure, giving one an easy test to take, charging them several thousands of dollars, and then sending them off with their printed degree must be incredibly expensive for the operation.

Nice. But it has been operating for more than 35 years!

"Degree Mills" have been operating for centuries prior. Excelsior is merely a drop in the bucket.

I clipped most of your comment, but I couldn't pass up this one. ITT Tech is not "unaccredited." You get a lot of your "facts" wrong, you know.

A cursory search for ITTech and "unaccredited" bring up many search results.

Your prerogative of course. Good luck with that practice

Good luck with what practice?

Do you hold an credential one obtained by taking a single easy multiple choice test from Excelsior or the State of New Jersey as having greater value than from a school with instruction, textbooks, and time invested?

[Ryan Steele]

What laws?

There aren't any laws which make the operation of a diploma mill a crime.

True dat. As established earlier, mills get taken down on peripheral charges like mail/wire fraud and tax evasion and a boatload of other tack-ons that the feds are known for. Therefore, just about any school could be taken down or left to be just upon the whims of some higher-up who is probably getting money under the table anyway. Not having a clearly defined law is basically totalitarianism, where the rules can be made up on the fly to be whatever some corrupt official wants them to be.