Who is on "our" side?

[Virtual Bison]

Just curious here.

It seems that there are few out there willing to stand up for Non-Traditional education. I mean specifically that the cause of academic freedom is under attack from all sides. Most recently I read how the State of Oregon is passing even more laws to punish holders of unaccredited degrees. We already saw how the powers-that-be have used their heavy hand to drive out various institutions in Wyoming. Now many of these schools are actual Diploma Mills, which I would describe any pseudo-institution which takes money to confer unearned degrees. But some are simply schools which do require effort to graduate but for whatever reason do not conform to other someone's expectation of what should constitute a "college" or "University."

I would add that my own personal experience has been that some accredited colleges and programs are significantly less challenging than some of these institutions under attack.

Of course there is this board and I stand by the sidelines here and read all these attacks on individual liberty. My jaw drops at some of the activities of the academic elitists who try to dictate what and what cannot be legitimately called a college or university.

My question is this, now that we have identified our enemies, just who are our friends?

I did read the list that the Administrator gave and while I find these groups to be admirable, they do not seem to have much to say in defense of non-traditional education. I also tried contacting the Libertarian Party, a party which I have had some contact with in the past, but they really do not have a stand on this issue.

While I like this board immensely, and I respect all the people here, I want to do more than just whine. I want to have an active role in supporting the freedom of individuals whose academic careers may include study at institutions that do not conform to what others believe. I see this as a basic issue of freedom. Nothing more and nothing less.

Can someone steer me in the right direction?

Thanks

[RespectableGent]

Everyone is on "our" side. Just take a look at those idiots at degreediscussion. They're all underachievers who seek to use credit by examination to "test out" of school and cheat themselves out of an education. Contreas and Gollum also support credit by examination. None of them care about learning. It's all about the quickest way to the degree.

If you've ever taken a CLEP or DANTES test you'd know that anyone fluent in English could rack up credits like nothing with verbal reasoning and logic tests. There really isn't a difference between buying your degree and "testing out". Both achieve the same bad result.

At least some of those degree mills require students to actually write a paper and do something creative for once. Kennedy Western even required students to study for their tests. That's much more than could be said for some of these drive through Regionally Accredited colleges.

[ham]

I did read the list that the Administrator gave and while I find these groups to be admirable, they do not seem to have much to say in defense of non-traditional education. I also tried contacting the Libertarian Party, a party which I have had some contact with in the past, but they really do not have a stand on this issue.

While I like this board immensely, and I respect all the people here, I want to do more than just whine. I want to have an active role in supporting the freedom of individuals whose academic careers may include study at institutions that do not conform to what others believe. I see this as a basic issue of freedom. Nothing more and nothing less.

Everybody, be it party, group or individual, must be VERY careful not to overstep any boundary. I see many libertarian columnists fight secondary battles such as the right to smoke in public places, 'trim my waist' ideologies or PC versus Mac but refrain from targeting the very core of issue that matter. Some even have convoluted socio-economic theories whose real application flies over the head of most. Why? Remember Mosley, Ward Churchill, Joel Hayward, David Irving? Do THEY want to end up in that position? Remember Haider, the Austrian right-wing leader (and leader of what was a few years back the second or third largest Austrian party)? Found dead in a mysterious deep night car crash with so much alcohol in his body that -say expert- would have incapacitated an ox, forget driving. The police report? Another car accident involving a drunk driver. I read articles detailing how a popular psychic who worked in a top-secret USA project to spy on the Soviets was mysteriously found dead, not without first complaining he was afraid someone had "put something" in his coffee.

The only safe way is that you make millions and then start buying politicians. Haim Saban, Jewish billionaire media mogul, publicly stated in an article how HE invited people to the White House and how he had Clinton sing and play instruments for the amusement of all. Media claim Saban donated around eight millions (?) to the Clinton cause. Saban alone. Remember when Bill Clinton wanted to pick a fight with Microsoft, but had to publicly recant and apologize after Bill Gates let know he hadn't taken it too well?

Make no mistake: while DE/DL is progressing for a number of factors, none of which derives from the unselfishness or morality of politicians, brick&mortar 'traditional' education IS a business worth BILLIONS. And someone is out to make that money even if it conflicts with some generic principles such as freedom. If they have money, they can buy politicians who write laws telling YOU what 'freedom' or 'free academia' mean today, subject to change.

If you've ever taken a CLEP or DANTES test you'd know that anyone fluent in English could rack up credits like nothing with verbal reasoning and logic tests. There really isn't a difference between buying your degree and "testing out". Both achieve the same bad result.

I strongly disagree here.
I took only a few "tests" to get credits for languages, but I can assure you they were not 'easy', but thoroughly tested whatever was to be covered. Of course I took those exams with a university and I have no idea about how other exam formats work.

[RespectableGent]

I strongly disagree here.
I took only a few "tests" to get credits for languages, but I can assure you they were not 'easy', but thoroughly tested whatever was to be covered. Of course I took those exams with a university and I have no idea about how other exam formats work.

What are you talking about? That you took tests for actual courses?

CLEP and DANTES tests are different. They're designed so that anybody could come off the street and rack up RA verbal reasoning credits. Large public universities are also in on the fact that people want their degree for little study and effort. They know that they're never going to sucker working moms into signing a $70,000 loan for a full program. That's why they market their tests instead and trick them into thinking that their experience is worth as much as a college education.

They call it "competency based evaluation" and give you a series of work aptitude tests which a fifth grader could pass.

If you question the validity of the tests, they'll throw this in your face: www.laspau.harvard.edu/idia/mecesup/readings/CDIO/Competency-BasedLearningModels.pdf

Western Governor's University is an example of a place that does this. And just to stop people from asking question they'll include an optional impossible test in advanced calculus here and there to make it seem as if their academic quality isn't entirely bankrupt.

[ham]

What are you talking about? That you took tests for actual courses?

Planet Earth to moonbase Alpha...do you copy? Yes, I took a few "challenge" exam, I passed (98% each) and was awarded credit as if I had taken the course.

I don't know why you take exception to these tests when it's well known even in the classroom not everybody's equal. Teachers will think twice and then twice again before failing the inept but 'diverse' student out of fear of being clustered as '...ists'. On the other hand, they'll have no problem making things difficult for and failing inconspicuous students they hate for other reasons (EX politics). I have seen that first hand. So we were in a classroom and there was a degree mill running right inside it, for some.
I myself witnessed an interview between a chairperson and a teaching assistant who claimed he had proof several students were guilty of plagiarism. What did the professor do? He first asked who these people were, and once he realized they included 'you know whos', he instructed the assistant to summon these students, tell them he thought they were plagiarizing and to ask them to resubmit the work.
The assistant insisted they should be punished, but the professor concluded saying that'd be unwise.

[RespectableGent]

Planet Earth to moonbase Alpha...do you copy? Yes, I took a few "challenge" exam, I passed (98% each) and was awarded credit as if I had taken the course.

The next time you look at the available CLEP and DANTES tests  notice how the majority are centered around basic skills such as Verbal Reasoning, Logic, and Critical Thinking. They're giving college credits for things someone should be able to do by the age of 16.

Sure, you'll find some difficult ones the authors put in to pretend that there's some form of quality. But the vast majority are passable by anyone fluent in English.

I don't know why you take exception to these tests when it's well known even in the classroom not everybody's equal. Teachers will think twice and then twice again before failing the inept but 'diverse' student out of fear of being clustered as '...ists'. On the other hand, they'll have no problem making things difficult for and failing inconspicuous students they hate for other reasons (EX politics). I have seen that first hand. So we were in a classroom and there was a degree mill running right inside it, for some.

Taking a test is not the same as learning in a classroom. It doesn't really matter how difficult the test is. It's not a learning experience.

Anyone who wants to "test out" of school is an underachiever and a slacker who wants the quickest way to the results. That includes everyone at degree discussion, which is why they tell everyone to go to Excelsior or Thomas Edison to cheat themselves out of an education.

It's not really even a discussion. Regionally Accredited colleges are also guilty of awarding degrees for little work. But because they have some nice buildings, no one seems to care.

[Virtual Bison]

RespectableGent and Ham, I thank you for this interesting discussion but can we please return to the original question?

Really there seems to be so much opposition to what I believe is a basic individual liberty. It is in the US and elsewhere. This notion that a government sanctioned body must grant accreditation to an institution (even if that institution is licensed by the state,) for it to be considered valid.

Now I myself am not a political office holder, I am not a judge or a lawyer, I do not have a newspaper that I publish. I am without power or influence. But I really want to know if there are any individuals or groups who support the cause of acedemic freedom.

I want to do more than just talk about it. I want to take action.

[Herbert Spencer]

Everyone is on "our" side.

Getting back to the original question, "our" side certainly represents the mainstream. There are some people who feel that for various reasons they are entitled to prizes just for showing up, who want short cuts that aren't available to others. These may be affirmative action types who claim to be remedying ancient wrongs, or they may be elitists like Gollum, who calls ignoring the rules a tradition at his fancy school because he thinks he's special. Or they just may be lazy ass con artists of the Goose or Lefkowitz variety, who enjoy working the system and then laughing at it.

I understand why guys coming back from war might not want to sit through a semester of "Intro to Fundamental Basics." It makes sense to create a way for guys who have served their country to convert the experience to course credits. In this case a lazy guy might prefer to sleep through the semester and take the easy "A." Somebody who was motivated might prefer to take useful or challenging courses instead. Abuses don't necessarily justify eliminating the system, but the simple fact that the abusers are accredited doesn't vitiate clear abuses either.

Likewise, the fact that there are some knuckleheads out there who try to palm off bogus diplomas, or even bigger knuckeheads who don't bother to check on the existence or quality of the bogus issuer, should not deny people access to education or educators access to students. (Although the fact that they don't bother to check says a lot about how important they think it is.)

The government is not the solution, if anything it is the problem here. In this sense "our" side already knows this and protects the free market. The support groups are needed by the whining nanny state socialists who want big brother to save us all from ourselves. Their number continues to shrink as more people realize that we do a better job of saving ourselves than the government ever could.

[Virtual Bison]

Everyone is on "our" side.

The government is not the solution, if anything it is the problem here.  In this sense "our" side already knows this and protects the free market.  The support groups are needed by the whining nanny state socialists who want big brother to save us all from ourselves.  Their number continues to shrink as more people realize that we do a better job of saving ourselves than the government ever could.

I get your point. Your own success has to do with individual responsibility. But I still undersand that those individuals who are opposed to people's freedom really are a problem because they get in the way of others trying to live their own lives. And, perhaps this even goes beyond education. I think that people sometimes need to get organized to fight what is wrong. For instance, when you have organized crime groups terrorizing a community and a lowly individual cannot fight alone, it often becomes necessary for citizens to join together. I know of one instance where a group of people drove out the riff-raft from their own community.

And I am not just talking about government here. Of course in a democratic society government is the people, but in the country where I live (the United States) this is not necessarily the case. Jefferson said it best, and I will paraphrase when he said an occasional revolution is not a bad thing.

[ham]

Taking a test is not the same as learning in a classroom. It doesn't really matter how difficult the test is. It's not a learning experience.

Are you discarding DE because it doesn't take place in a classroom?
You are free to have your opinion.
I am glad I can do without classrooms...they never added anything to my learning. Nothing. Of course others may think otherwise.

I want to do more than just talk about it. I want to take action.

You want decent unaccredited degrees to gain mainstream acceptance, but you cannot even describe what constitutes a 'decent' school... a 'decent' curriculum, a 'decent' amount of required work, a 'decent' level of evaluation for one are 'indecent' for others...is a five pages paper enough, or is a twenty pages paper enough?

The government wants to control you, but most 'educational entrepreneurs' are just ruthless conpeople who care only about money piling up in a Belize account. They are going to put up a show to insure your money goes their way. If the show is good, good; if the show is bad, well as long as the cheque clears...

As far as action goes, you'll find many groups barking up individual trees in the education forest, but I doubt they are interested in killing the system and facing off statism. One thing is to give big brother and its cronies their iota of adrenaline finger pointing them as crooks over the issue of smoking in public places...another is to really mean harm to them. Much as with 'controversial items' and 'sacred cows' relating to WWII, one thing is for a scholar to publish the occasional, unspecific tirade or the occasional controversial view hiding low...if a scholar really means business, it means early retirement, unemployment and lots of trouble. Never for a moment think they are going to let the billions worth of B&M contracts slip from their hand. People kill one another to steal 20$...

DE/DL will make inroads slowly...waiting for the occasional revolution to happen.