DL Truth: Distance Learning Truth

Dennis Ruhl Wrote:I just looked at the IFTS graduates in Kenya.  They all seem to have African names.

I think part of the problem is that the criticizers, all Americans, are a bit xenophobic.  If everything isn't done just like back home, it isn't valid.  By their reasoning a religious degree isn't valid without government accreditation whereas most governments of the world, my provincial jurisdiction Alberta included, will not accredit schools offering strictly religious degrees.

The politics of many countries, Kenya included I'm sure, means they have to avoid the appearance of favoring one group over another.  The first time a degree granting Muslim religious school in the United States is refused accreditation, the whole system of government recognized accreditation of religious schools will fall.  I don't know why it has lasted so long.

I think most of the NU students are from Kenya. And clearly, the number of Kenyan students at IFTS (still) currently outnumber the students from other nations (this is why IFTS pursues state-recognised accreditation in Kenya). There are 30 % of Muslims in Kenya, and Kenya - geopolitically - is one of the so-called "front states" in the international struggle against Islamic-motivated terrorism. Somalia, a currently unstable nation in inner political terms, is bordering Kenya in the north, and some identical ethnic groups live on either side of the border. If Kenya would ever fall victim to an Islamist government, this would be a great setback for the rest of the world.
Internally, Kenya has a very young population, and many have entry credentials for university level studies but cannot pursue any of them for reasons of poverty or lack of study places available to them. Most of the students at IFTS clearly come from one of the many slums in and around Nairobi. These are places where education is needed most, and several churches have now been planted there not only guiding people spiritually but also initiating a number of social development projects.One of the pastors from there only submitted a thesis on church-based children education in the slums of Nairobi - terrible places to live and without lots of better perspectives for people living there. Hopeless, in a way....
Our current IFTS Director (Dr. Fred Maina Macharia) is a former street kid from one of these slums, and he is helping others now.
Countries like Kenya are in urgent need of a bit more than just theological training: IFTS is training English teachers, and for a number of unwritten tribal languages we have initiated linguistic research projects in order to develop an alphabet, fight illiteracy, and to set up some Bible Translation projects for several languages (we have the same in Nepal).
All these are things that need urgently to be addressed, and there is no time to wait until a Kenyan government body is going to address such an issue. if we can assist local people to do that right now, however humble the means may be, we also assist that these people become a voice to express their needs, and clearly contributing towards educational development in these places is also a contribution towards political stability and peace.
Kenyans are very grateful for the little things and services they receive, and they have a heart-touching way to express their deep gratitude: Dr. Macharia named his newly born son (a year ago) after me giving him one of my forenames (he did not like "Muhammad",for obvious reasons as a Christian that he is), and others address me as "Dad" (it is a usual way of Africans to extend that term outside their family and clan to strangers to show particular affection).
I am sure that Dr Mac Lynn from NU can report the same regarding the latter.

On the other hand, it is understandable that even people like Bill Grover or John Weaver-something (I forgot the last part) try to take advantage of educational facilities as well as Africans do on their part. As long as that happens in an honest, fair way and without academic malpractices, it is OK. However, there is a gradual difference: Such persons do not come from an "underserved" part of the world, and whether they have a legitimate doctorate or not certainly means less to their environment than to a Kenyan and his environment. It is more to serve their primary ego in being able to use a prestigious degree in front of their name, and quite possibly, is not primarily knowledge and critical reflection of it that is being sought by such persons. Kenyan students at NU or IFTS primarily seek knowledge to apply it later for the benefit of their environment.

What a difference! Those primarily seeking knowledge by way of sound research are the seekers, and not only the Bible tells that the true seekers will be blessed. Those who think to know everything already do not feel to seek anymore. There is nice, wise Chinese proverb:

Xue dao lao, xue bu liao.
(learning- till-old age, learning-not-finish/be finished).
" Even at old age, you never stop learning".

Dennis Ruhl Wrote:I think IFTS and NationsUniversity are wonderful schools bringing an education to those underserved because of economics.  I speak as an MRS graduate of NationsUniversity and a current MMin student.  In a perfect world all schools would have proper resources to provide an equal education to everyone regardless of whether they live in Africa, Asia, or the US.  The world isn't perfect.  I think it was an extremely cheap shot to belittle these schools based solely on innuendo.  If there were even specific criticisms they could be addressed there might be a case but none were offered.

These schools rely on volunteer and missionary efforts to better the plight of Africa.  The academic staff of NationsUniversity all have as good of credentials as those at most schools.  The reason for this is that they are mostly on the academic staffs of accredited brick and mortar schools.  While an American at a brick and mortar school must pay dearly for the expertise of such people, it is available for free through NationsUniversity.

Uncle Janko and Bill Grover, Americans, used scarce African state university resources to obtain advanced degrees.  Was an African denied the opportunity to obtain his doctorate and pursue an academic career?  I know what Dr. Schmidt, IFTS, and NationsUniversity has done for Africa.  I don't know what Janko and Grover have done.

The only person in the world that I have ever seen criticize Dr. Schmidt was Janko and, of course, he never provided any reasons or indeed any actual criticism that could be refuted.  It was all about belittling.  To repeat, Dr. Schmidt has a top degree from one of the best universities in Germany.  That simply cannot be refuted, try as you may.  He has dozens of publications and books.  Again that cannot be refuted.    

With Janko's thesis at the University of Zululand, I think he was taking the last kick at the can after being in a few doctoral programs.  As his largest previous efforts were in Classics and Latin, I think he tried to take the familiar and combine them with a new Confucianist twist to please Dr. Song his Zululand advisor who is ethnically Chinese ergo we get a seemingly incomprensible thesis topic.  I don't know that he simply rewrote his previous work, probably just drawing on the base of knowledge.  It is certainly an odd topic for a ThD, relating pagan Rome to Confucian China but academics often love work that combines fields.  I might have questions about whether he had sufficient doctoral level knowledge of Chinese culture to have successfully pulled it off.

Speaking ill of the dead?  In life Janko created collateral damage and if I can help some people get through it, I'm doing good.  As I have pointed out, Janko did not debate fairly.  He would never state a case, choosing the attack instead of reason.  We were supposed to be in awe of his great wisdom and intellect and trust his opinion.  Well he was often wrong.  That's as simple as it gets.

Without wanting to go to into too many technical details, let me please point out that Confucianism cannot be compared with/to the conception of law as it exists in Western tradition. In fact, Confucianism is "anti-legal" in the sense that it stresses moral/ethical values over abstract legal concepts. There has been a Legalist School of Thought in Ancient China long before Confucianism became popular. Historically, the Legalist School failed, and that is where Confucianism came in. As Westeners, we often say that there is no "rule of law" in China, and we also claim that Human Rights are not honoured there.
From a Chinese perspective, moral/ethical values are more important than "just law", and as Human Rights are concepts focusing on the value of the individual, it is alien to Chinese cultural settings: In Confucianism, the individual does not count much, and the needs of the group (family, collective, society) supersede those of the individual.
With this in mind, relating Confucius to Cicero with a religious, semi-theological touch is an absolute nonsense and an artificial construct of a person who knows absolutely nothing about China, its culture and society and language.

Chinese professors, especially in South Africa and outside China, are very often too polite and do not want their Doctoral candidate to lose face -even when the candidates produce a thesis topic which is entirely nonsense. Again, this is in line with Confucian ethics but it is absurd and odd in Western terms. It seems that Weaver benefited from just this; I think that it is quite normal in failing with such a thesis topic somewhere else.

Quote:Chinese professors, especially in South Africa and outside China, are very often too polite and do not want their Doctoral candidate to lose face -even when the candidates produce a thesis topic which is entirely nonsense. Again, this is in line with Confucian ethics but it is absurd and odd in Western terms. It seems that Weaver benefited from just this; I think that it is quite normal in failing with such a thesis topic somewhere else.

Just because one happens to be Chinese and happens to have a Ph.D doesn't mean he has that much of an understanding of the inner workings of Chinese tradition dating back millennia.

Quote:If Unk's work at UZ is in question, I suggest that his promoter , Prof Arthur Song, be contacted at UZ or SATS. Song has emailed me that Unk's dissertation was very well done. Were Unk's process at UZ similar to mine, then external examiners from other SA public unis would have had to pass Unk's work. I think I'll believe these!

See what I mean?
This other is talking about his brother, or so it seems...too bad he's referring to another internet oddball he's never met...
They were all compliments and ceremonial bows around Thomas Chip White as well...before the gay teen porn item (which was hidden in plain sight all the time ) was made public...that was when they gave him the evil eye...
What does it mean?
Doctorates are industrially produced yearly by the ten of thousands...
Get a grip...even my few degree dissertations and degrees were passed by internal AND external examiners...does it make me a genius?

Sooner than later Thomas Chip White will drop coffee enemas and claim Janko healed cancer instead...
PFFT!

ham Wrote:

Quote:Chinese professors, especially in South Africa and outside China, are very often too polite and do not want their Doctoral candidate to lose face -even when the candidates produce a thesis topic which is entirely nonsense. Again, this is in line with Confucian ethics but it is absurd and odd in Western terms. It seems that Weaver benefited from just this; I think that it is quite normal in failing with such a thesis topic somewhere else.

Just because one happens to be Chinese and happens to have a Ph.D doesn't mean he has that much of an understanding of the inner workings of Chinese tradition dating back millennia.

Quote:If Unk's work at UZ is in question, I suggest that his promoter , Prof Arthur Song, be contacted at UZ or SATS. Song has emailed me that Unk's dissertation was very well done. Were Unk's process at UZ similar to mine, then external examiners from other SA public unis would have had to pass Unk's work. I think I'll believe these!

See what I mean?
This other is talking about his brother, or so it seems...too bad he's referring to another internet oddball he's never met...
They were all compliments and ceremonial bows around Thomas Chip White as well...before the gay teen porn item (which was hidden in plain sight all the time ) was made public...that was when they gave him the evil eye...
What does it mean?
Doctorates are industrially produced yearly by the ten of thousands...
Get a grip...even my few degree dissertations and degrees were passed by internal AND external examiners...does it make me a genius?

Sooner than later Thomas Chip White will drop coffee enemas and claim Janko healed cancer instead...
PFFT!

I can very clearly see what you mean. And I think you are absolutely right: A Doctorate document is just a certificate that you submitted a thesis but it does not necessarily say how excellent or less excellent it was. And it does not say how meaningful it was to the academic community at large. And to some, such a document is a mere fetish to satisfy their own ego.
The real value is somewhere else, I think: Knowledge and science in general depend on gradual but continuing progress to develop and advance the common knowledge of mankind and to make the best of it. What does a doctorate title help if you do not look at what is behind to focus on that? Then, it is just a piece of paper.....

When I was a research student for my PhD at Berlin Free University; I had a scholarship from an institution associated with the Roman-Catholic Conference of German Bishops. I could live well on that and even had more than enough money to buy books for my studies and research. Only a few so-called "elite" students with excellent marks/grades in their previous Master exams were granted such a scholarship. Others fellow students looked at us students with such a special privilege as "geniuses", but we made a joke of it in claiming that a "genius" is most likely a "lunatic", too. In other words, what really counts is personality, integrity, etc. and not some external thing like raced, colour, religion, or degree.

Certain "geniuses" also are likely to fail in very simple practical things of life. For example, I myself cannot take a hammer and pull a nail into the wall; I cannot peal potatoes, etc. No, right downward to earth: Even people with 10 PhDs ( I personally have never met any) are not "geniuses", and neither am I. Better to say that than having to say that I was a "lunatic"...grin.

ham Wrote:

Quote:Chinese professors, especially in South Africa and outside China, are very often too polite and do not want their Doctoral candidate to lose face -even when the candidates produce a thesis topic which is entirely nonsense. Again, this is in line with Confucian ethics but it is absurd and odd in Western terms. It seems that Weaver benefited from just this; I think that it is quite normal in failing with such a thesis topic somewhere else.

Just because one happens to be Chinese and happens to have a Ph.D doesn't mean he has that much of an understanding of the inner workings of Chinese tradition dating back millennia.

Quote:If Unk's work at UZ is in question, I suggest that his promoter , Prof Arthur Song, be contacted at UZ or SATS. Song has emailed me that Unk's dissertation was very well done. Were Unk's process at UZ similar to mine, then external examiners from other SA public unis would have had to pass Unk's work. I think I'll believe these!

See what I mean?
This other is talking about his brother, or so it seems...too bad he's referring to another internet oddball he's never met...
They were all compliments and ceremonial bows around Thomas Chip White as well...before the gay teen porn item (which was hidden in plain sight all the time ) was made public...that was when they gave him the evil eye...
What does it mean?
Doctorates are industrially produced yearly by the ten of thousands...
Get a grip...even my few degree dissertations and degrees were passed by internal AND external examiners...does it make me a genius?

Sooner than later Thomas Chip White will drop coffee enemas and claim Janko healed cancer instead...
PFFT!

Perhaps that that Mr. Th. Ch. Wh. could also claim that the departed Uncle was the last pope. If so, which Pope then? That of medieval Avignon (France), the rival pope in Rome, or a pope by his own "grace"?
Making such a claim is one thing, to decide whether you could trust and believe such a claim is another.
If I told you IFTS was situated in Antarctica and teaching the local pinguins English there, would you be likely to believe? If I told you that 2+2 makes and not 5, would you believe? It is the same with the reputation of a person - it can rise and it can fall, either for well-founded or unfounded reason.
In other words, fame is a very unstable thing in life and applied to persons mostly not on grounds of objective merits but on grounds of personal likes or dislikes. It is sad but we have to face the fact that the public opinion is more prone to take the easier road of not reflecting critically rather than making the effort to do so.
It depends on each of us which road we will take....

Quote:In other words, fame is a very unstable thing in life and applied to persons mostly not on grounds of objective merits but on grounds of personal likes or dislikes. It is sad but we have to face the fact that the public opinion is more prone to take the easier road of not reflecting critically rather than making the effort to do so.

Well, for example I happen to think not much of Bear's guides (after all I bought one ages ago )...a mere phone-book directory of John Bear's competitors in the realm of unaccredited schools and many legitimate schools, too...
However, the enterprise was a commercial success...
Even Thomas Chip White's 'business' can be construed as a commercial success...
So we have a gay teen pornographer and the owner/promoter of several schools he now refers to as degree mills, problematic etc...that is the biggest success we can find among the clique, I'm afraid.

ham Wrote:

Quote:In other words, fame is a very unstable thing in life and applied to persons mostly not on grounds of objective merits but on grounds of personal likes or dislikes. It is sad but we have to face the fact that the public opinion is more prone to take the easier road of not reflecting critically rather than making the effort to do so.

Well, for example I happen to think not much of Bear's guides (after all I bought one ages ago )...a mere phone-book directory of John Bear's competitors in the realm of unaccredited schools and many legitimate schools, too...
However, the enterprise was a commercial success...
Even Thomas Chip White's 'business' can be construed as a commercial success...
So we have a gay teen pornographer and the owner/promoter of several schools he now refers to as degree mills, problematic etc...that is the biggest success we can find among the clique, I'm afraid.

Well, the combination of a gay teen pornographer and promoter/owner of several schools is indeed a bit "exceptional", to say the least. I am not so sure whether it would be really helpful to assess this combination in terms of morale/ethics alone or whether we simply stick to facts. Let me try to sort it out a bit:
- If that person runs schools with an entirely secular background, then you might just say it is a "weird" or "strange" business combination, but in moral terms we need to look at the details such as legal status (even unaccredited schools must be legitimate!), etc. If everything is OK in legal terms, we might just say that the porno biz and a school is a strange combination and that it does not add to the reputation of his "schools".
-If he also runs religious schools, then it is not OK at all; he must either leave the pron biz or the religious scholl biz.
- Whatever a school such a person runs - whether of a secular or religious nature - the porn biz does not add to the reputation of a school if the owner is known for that. Would you enroll at such a school? I am sure you would not, and neither would I. As a graduate of such a school, you and I would also have a name to lose, right? That is why we would do well to keep our hands off such "schools".

As you may be aware of, not every unaccredited school is a degree mill per se. A degree mill is one not offering any programs of study and selling fake degrees to anybody who can pay for it. Nothing more, nothing less.
The criterion of whether a school is a degree mill or a legitimate one does not primarily depend on whether it is accredited or not. Religious schools are, in many States of the US, exempted from the formal requirement of accreditation under the "religious school exempt" status but still would need a State License to confer degrees of an entirely religious nature. Accreditation is a voluntary process for them while for secular schools it is not.

It seems that Mr. Th. Ch. Wh.`s "schools" in addition to the porn biz he seems to pursue does not add to the reputation of his "schools", whether legitimate or illegitimate. If he cannot make money anymore with them because of the damaged reputation he might have, they might disappear altogether. This is what I would say as an "outsider" who knows nothing about the concrete situation.

Let me ask: Could I open a legitimate school somewhere in the US with the primary purpose of teaching Chinese or English to Florida alligators? Might be a new business field for the gentleman you named, too.....lol.

Quote:It seems that Mr. Th. Ch. Wh.`s "schools" in addition to the porn biz he seems to pursue does not add to the reputation of his "schools",

John Bear and Thomas Chip White are two different individuals; as far as public knowledge goes (because I am not their accountant nor confessor) , White never run 'schools' and Bear never run gay teen porn business...

ham Wrote:

Quote:It seems that Mr. Th. Ch. Wh.`s "schools" in addition to the porn biz he seems to pursue does not add to the reputation of his "schools",

John Bear and Thomas Chip White are two different individuals; as far as public knowledge goes (because I am not their accountant nor confessor) , White never run 'schools' and Bear never run gay teen porn business...

This is what I understood and presumed. Is there any specific reason in my reply why you are pointing it out?

Jambo Wrote:This is what I understood and presumed. Is there any specific reason in my reply why you are pointing it out?

Quote:It seems that Mr. Th. Ch. Wh.`s "schools" in addition to the porn biz he seems to pursue does not add to the reputation of his "schools", whether legitimate or illegitimate. If he cannot make money anymore with them because of the damaged reputation he might have, they might disappear altogether.

There are no Thomas Chip White's schools as far as public knowledge goes...only coffee enemas and gay teen porn. It seemed you typed <<that Mr. Th. Ch. Wh.`s "schools" in addition to the porn biz he seems to pursue does not add to the reputation of his "schools",>>.
White apparently holds no university degree while John Bear has a Ph.D.