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+--- Thread: Why Diploma Mills exist (/thread-861.html)
RE: Why Diploma Mills exist - BROWN TEAL - 06-25-2010
ham Wrote:There is no doubt certain schools benefit from special treatment, much as individuals do.
It's like when the bunch of perverts, frauds, millists and their ilk at DD/DI keep discussing a degree mill and debating seemingly fine points of doctrine again and again under the cover of 'exposing' it...that's a fraudulent infomercial for the school being discussed. Remember ESRDS? They kept on discussing moot points in spite of the fact that admittedly they knew no French and had no clue about how France differs from Alabama. What is that, according to you? Oh, yes...Diderot and Grimm exchanging lists of pornographic books & book stores under the cover of criticizing them. Wasn't John Bear's first guide a directory of mills complete with addresses? To 'expose' them, of course...
But Ham, you were the person/mole/implant that provided Robert De Sorbon with exactly the publicity it required and you were almost solely responsible for enduring the ESRDS is now listed as a French University on numerous French websites - which is where ESRDS are entitled to be.
Here's a list of the real 'degree mills':
http://www.instantdegrees.com
http://www.degrees-and-diplomas.com
http://www.universityofdublin.org
http://www.degreexpress.eu/?degree+adwords2
http://www.speedydegrees.com/sitemap.asp
http://www.degrees-for-sale.com
http://www.customdegrees.com
http://www.affordabledegrees.com
http://www.degreexpress.eu
http://www.hilluniversity.com
http://www.belforduniversity.org
http://www.stanfielduniversity.org
http://portland-university.net
http://www.maxwelluniversity.com
http://www.stanforduniversity.eu/
http://www.concordia-college.net/
http://www.fpu-edu.org/main.htm
http://www.limburg-online.org/
http://www.lorenzuniversity.com/
http://www.alumnaservices.co.uk/
http://www.satisfieddegree.com/
Even these do very little harm to the modern world, as anyone with 1/2 a brain can soon determine their legitimacy (except perhaps HAM, G-G & JB?
RE: Why Diploma Mills exist - ham - 06-25-2010
Quote:But Ham, you were the person/mole/implant that provided Robert De Sorbon with exactly the publicity it required and you were almost solely responsible for enduring the ESRDS is now listed as a French University on numerous French websites - which is where ESRDS are entitled to be.
You mean those 'listing' websites that indexed even Chip White's gay teen porn DVD n.71? Everybody goes on those listings according to meta words indexed by search engines, or flatly pays to be there.
I never posted on any French website, so I can't see how I could be responsible for what goes on them.
Publicity?
I only came to know about them when their aliases trolled every site on Earth to gain visibility; I am not interested in any quickie based on some catchy foreign procedure with an odd name.
I have the best education money can buy, remember?
Quote:as anyone with 1/2 a brain can soon determine their legitimacy (except perhaps HAM, G-G & JB?
Am I to discuss brain sizes or smarts with someone nicknamed dr. Duck? Ham & dr. Duck? What's that, Hanna&Barbera with a crack pipe?
Much as I loved (and saved to HD) our deleted funny exchange, I am not in the position of resuming it here, so let's agree to disagree.
you are not writing things that are correct - Bellona - 06-26-2010
RespectableGent:
Quote:At present, it is perfectly legal to operate a diploma mill. It is perfectly legal to outright sell someone a credential from your institution. There are no legal bans against such a practice...
What laws? There aren't any laws which make the operation of a diploma mill a crime.
"Illegal" is not the same as "criminal."
As far as the feds are concerned, compare forbidden activities covered by the FTC Act (in Title 15 of the United States Code) with forbidden (criminal) activities covered by Title 18 of the United States Code. The FTC got the University Degree Program on violation of 15 USC. The DOJ got St. Regis on violation of 18 USC.
In some states selling degrees is a misdemeanor, in some it is a felony.
A state that criminalizes selling degrees is North Dakota. See North Dakota Century Code Chapter 15-20.4, http://www.legis.nd.gov/cencode/t15c204.pdf
Quote:15-20.4-15. Unlawful to issue, manufacture, or use false academic degrees -
Penalty.
1. It is unlawful for a person to knowingly advertise to sell, issue, or manufacture a
false academic degree. A person that violates this subsection is guilty of a class C
felony. This subsection does not apply to a newspaper, television or radio station, or
other commercial medium that is not the source of the advertisement.
2. a. It is unlawful for an individual to knowingly use or claim to have a false
academic degree:
(1) To obtain employment
(2) To obtain a promotion or higher compensation in employment;
(3) To obtain admission to an institution of higher learning; or
(4) In connection with any business, trade, profession, or occupation.
b. An individual who violates this subsection is guilty of a class A misdemeanor.
3. As used in this section, "false academic degree" means a document such as a
degree or certification of completion of a degree, coursework, or degree credit,
including a transcript, that provides evidence or demonstrates completion of a
course of instruction or coursework that results in the attainment of a rank or level of
associate or higher which is issued by a person that is not a duly authorized
institution of higher learning.
4. As used in this section, "duly authorized institution of higher learning" means an
institution that:
a. Has accreditation recognized by the United States secretary of education or
has the foreign equivalent of such accreditation;
b. Has an authorization to operate under this chapter;
c. Operates in this state and is exempt from this chapter under section
15-20.4-02;
d. Does not operate in this state and is:
(1) Licensed by the appropriate state agency; and
(2) An active applicant for accreditation by an accrediting body recognized
by the United States secretary of education; or
Page No. 6
e. Has been found by the state board for career and technical education to meet
standards of academic quality comparable to those of an institution located in
the United States that has accreditation recognized by the United States
secretary of education to offer degrees of the type and level claimed.
RespectableGent:
Quote:Most diploma mill operators were prosecuted on grounds of tax evasion or making materially false claims in their literature... None were prosecuted for awarding degrees on life experience, substandard work, or whatever. There are absolutely no laws which outline what a college can and cannot do.
The defendants in USA vs. Dixie Ellen Randock et al. were convicted of an array of federal charges including mail and wire fraud, as well as violation of the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act. James Kirk (Lasalle U) was indicted on 18 counts of mail and wire fraud, as well as tax evasion. In his plea agremment he went for the single count of tax evasion. Most of Dipscam's diploma mill operators were nailed for mail and wire fraud.
RespectableGent:
Quote:Actually congress and the federal government does reserve the right to control education, and make laws regarding education.
No, it's a state function, and you know that perfectly well. Congress can control federal funding for educational purposes, but not the degree providers themselves unless they violate federal law, as was done by the "administration" of St. Regis.
You are foolish to write so many things that are untrue, it messes up your argument and makes it too easy to ignore you.
RE: you are not writing things that are correct - RespectableGent - 06-26-2010
The "Mail and Wire Fraud" charges were in reference to making materially false claims in regards to acceptance. Other companies which make materially false claims about their product are also prosecuted on grounds of mail or wire fraud.
Academic quality or "life experience degrees" had nothing to do with it. If you are making materially false claims of acceptance, you are lying to your customers, and thus mail or wire fraud might be an appropriate charge.
There are absolutely no statutes, federally, or state-wide, which indicate that a degree cannot be awarded on life experience or for substandard instruction.
Not even North Dakota's "manufacture of a false degree" code covers what St. Regis was doing; issuing degrees based on the assessment of one's portfolio.
RE: you are not writing things that are correct - Herbert Spencer - 06-26-2010
Bellona Wrote:The defendants in USA vs. Dixie Ellen Randock et al. were convicted of an array of federal charges including mail and wire fraud, as well as violation of the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act.
That statement is false, as I'm sure you well know. They may have been charged with a variety of trumped up charges, but the Randocks pled guilty to one count of conspiracy to commit wire and mail fraud. Novack was the only one convicted under FCPA. Why anyone other than the pervert child pornographer Pearson pled guilty to anything is still a mystery to me.
Are you still in grudge mode because Dixie got the three years community service the corrupt judge vindictively tacked onto her sentence overturned on appeal?
In any event, in citing convictions under the wire fraud statute you have completely and precisely proved RGent's point, that any such convictions are not taken under "diploma mill" statutes.
And take that pissy attitude somewhere else. If you want to come over here and discuss issues, discuss issues, don't make with the "Do you really mean what you are writing" and "you are foolish to write untruths," etc. You are foolish to think that anyone is going to put up with your passive aggressive bullshit. If RGent wasn't kicking the shit out of you in this discussion I'm sure you would already be banned.
RE: Why Diploma Mills exist - ham - 06-26-2010
Do you know that when big brother could not frame an unwelcome individual, they resorted to sorcery? It was still legal practice in England during WWII. In other words, big brother will forget or remember as it sees fit. In France they are putting to use new speed traps that -according to many- violate or or many law provisions. Since they are thought to bring in an extra load of millions, insiders claim a new whitewashing law is cooking to make them perfectly legal.
RE: Why Diploma Mills exist - Dennis Ruhl - 06-27-2010
dooglearse Wrote:This is, sadly, a case of broken logic---a conclusion in search of an explanation, creating one where it does not exist naturally.
Air Marshall!
Where's your wingman? I guess he crashed and burned.
RE: Why Diploma Mills exist - dooglearse - 06-28-2010
RespectableGent Wrote:Public schools are owned and operated by the state. For example, the millions of dollars brought in by Excelsior College go directly to the state coffers, and thus it's "good".
You get a lot of things wrong, sir. Excesior isn't a public university. Whatever it earns most certainly does not go into the "state coffers."
Quote:If some private entity tried to start up a similar non-traditional school it's "bad," labeled a "diploma mill" and are pressured out of operation.
Excelsior is private.
Quote:Career and Vocational schools are substandard, with curriculas built solely around a single profession.Quote:"Curricula." It's already plural without the "s." You have to be able to say it before you can argue about it.
Substandard schools are not necessarily bad. I personally recommend to friends and family members to attend a Career or Vocational school for their degree rather than enrolling into a traditional school.
Your concept of "substandard" is certainly "nonstandard," which is what you likely mean.Quote:If one's only purpose is to become an Administrative Assistant the career school will put the student through a rapid series of courses in Microsoft Office, Quickbooks, and Business.
If one's purpose is to become a graphics designer, there are specialized art schools which teach graphic design and only graphic design.
These examples, of course, have nothing to do with the issue. Also, there are several accrediting agencies that handle career and vocational schools. Finally, many career and vocational schools are approved for Title IV.Quote:Enrolling into a traditional public school, on the other hand, requires the student to take a substantial course load in addition to their major. Students must take many courses unrelated to their interest.
Your argument has drifted from schools called "diploma mills" to career/vocational schools vs. universities. And there is no difference in curricula between private and public universities, by the way.Quote:Why should English majors be forced to take Math classes? Why should an Artist be forced to take courses in Biology?
In order to earn degrees, they should finish complete curricula. But those subjects are also available from career and vocational schools. So?
The higher education cartel does not like the fact that there are smaller specialized schools which allow a student to graduate in a shorter amount of time, and for less money. They go to great lengths in their attempt to put them out of business. They attempt to use the diploma mill "issue" to deny their access to loans, and to drive them out of business.
[/quote]
Please provide even one example where this has occurred. Name one school that has been driven out of business for the reasons you cite.
RE: Why Diploma Mills exist - dooglearse - 06-28-2010
Dennis Ruhl Wrote:Where's your wingman? I guess he crashed and burned.
And your record of service, sir?
RE: Why Diploma Mills exist - Dennis Ruhl - 06-28-2010
dooglearse Wrote:Dennis Ruhl Wrote:Where's your wingman? I guess he crashed and burned.
And your record of service, sir?
I remember an officer's dinner at a very fine hotel and I was dressed in my finest British Cavalry blues. Someone came up and asked me where the washrooms were and I replied that I didn't know. It took a minute to hit me but he must have thought I was the frigging doorman. My record of service is insignificant.
I just wondered where your buddy was. You know like Quickdraw McGraw had? You guys were like Siamese twins.