Is College Worth the Investment?

[Winston Smith]

Here's an interesting study that compares return on investment for various categories of colleges.  Unfortunately it did not consider for-profit schools like U of Phoenix or Kaplan, or any of the new wave of non-traditional DL schools.  Not surprisingly, the return on investment is higher for the more selective schools.  But there are wide variations of return within each category.

Quote:Is College Worth the Investment?
by Mark Schneider
American Enterprise Institute
October 12, 2010

For decades, a college education was the second most-expensive commodity families ever paid for, after their house—and given rising tuition and falling house values, college may now be the most expensive purchase. Knowing how that investment is going to pay off is a critical consideration that should factor into the decision about which school to attend. Going forward, we need to find ways to make these detailed return on investment data available for more schools and help students make worthwhile investments of their time and money.

  09-EduO-Oct-2010-g.pdf (Size: 166.41 KB / Downloads: 4)

Quote:Key points in this Outlook:
• The return on investment (ROI) from a college degree is higher at more selective universities and at public universities.
• Within each level of selectivity, ROI varies widely among individual colleges.
• With many colleges simply not worth the investment, we need to find ways to collect and publish ROI data so students can make better decisions about what college or university to attend.

Quote:One way to judge whether the ROI is worthwhile is to figure out how much it costs students to borrow money to attend a college and compare those costs to the rate of return. Currently, unsubsidized student loans from the federal government carry a 6.8 percent interest rate. This rate is a natural starting point to compare student ROIs; if the rate of return is lower than the cost of the borrowed money, attending that college does not seem like a prudent choice.

Of the schools for which PayScale reported data, seventeen colleges (listed in table 1) fail this basic test. While about half of the colleges are in the two lowest levels of selectivity, an equal number are in the middle, and one is in the “very competitive” category. Twelve are private, not-for-profit institutions, while only five are public institutions, which reflects the higher cost of attending a private institution.

While this analysis sets an absolute threshold keyed to a well-known and published interest rate, other loans that students may take out have higher rates. These private loans have variable interest rates that can reach 9 or 10 percent. Obviously, as we move the cutoff from the 6.8 percent federal-student-loan rate used in the above example to the higher costs for a mix of federal and private loans, the number of schools whose ROIs fail to surpass the cost of money grows quickly. ...

Quote:TABLE 2
HIGHEST AND LOWEST RETURNS ON INVESTMENT BY BARRON’S SELECTIVITY LEVEL FOR PRIVATE NOT-FOR-PROFIT AND PUBLIC COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES

Private, Not-for-Profit
Level of Selectivity ROI

Private, Most Competitive
(Average for All Institutions) 11%
University of Miami, FL 8%
Massachusetts Institute of Technology, MA 13%
California Institute of Technology, CA 13%

Private, Highly Competitive
(Average for All Institutions) 10%
Rollins College, FL 7%
Union College, NY 12%
Worcester Polytechnic Institute, MA 12%
Grove City College, PA 12%

Private, Very Competitive
(Average for All Institutions) 9%
Willamette University, OR 6%
Siena College, NY 11%
Manhattan College, NY 12%
Brigham Young University, UT 14%

Private, Competitive
(Average for All Institutions) 8%
Campbell University, NC 5%
Liberty University, VA 6%
Point Park University, PA 6%
St. Ambrose University, IA 6%
Lindenwood University, MO 7%
Wentworth Institute of Technology, MA 10%
Lawrence Technological University, MI 10%
Assumption College, MA 10%
Howard University, DC 10%

Private, Less Competitive
(Average for All Institutions) 7%
Shaw University, NC 4%
Clark Atlanta University, GA 6%
Columbia College–Chicago, IL 6%
Friends University, KS 7%
Dowling College, NY 8%
Wayland Baptist University, TX 8%
University of Bridgeport, CT 8%

Private, Noncompetitive
(Average for All Institutions) 6%
Davenport University, MI 5%
Mercy College–Main Campus, NY 6%


Public
Level of Selectivity ROI

Public, Most Competitive
(Average for All Institutions) 13%
The College of New Jersey, NJ 12%
College of William and Mary, VA 14%
University of Virginia–Main Campus, VA 14%

Public, Highly Competitive
(Average for All Institutions) 12%
SUNY at Geneseo, NY 10%
Ramapo College, NJ 10%
University of Pittsburgh, PA 10%
Ohio State University–Main Campus, OH 11%
Georgia Institute of Technology, GA 14%
Colorado School of Mines, CO 14%

Public, Very Competitive
(Average for All Institutions) 10%
Georgia College & State University, GA 8%
California Polytechnic State University–
San Luis Obispo, CA 13%
University of Delaware, DE 13%
James Madison University, VA 13%

Public, Competitive
(Average for All Institutions) 9%
Chicago State University, IL 6%
California State Polytechnic University–
Pomona, CA 12%

Public, Less Competitive
(Average for All Institutions) 9%
Black Hills State University, SD 5%
Northeastern State University, OK 7%
California State University–Fresno, CA 11%

Public, Noncompetitive
(Average for All Institutions) 9%
University of Arkansas–Little Rock, AR 6%
Cameron University, OK 6%
Utah State University, UT 11%
University of Wisconsin–Platteville, WI 11%
Kansas State University, KS 11%

[Winston Smith]

For the list of all 852 colleges studied:
Colleges Worth Your Investment - Full List

Note these are ranked by 30 year ROI, not annual return percentage.  Which means, for example, that for two schools with the same 30 year return, the school with the higher tuition expense will have a lower annual percentage return.

Top 20
Rank School Name School Type Average Cost for College in 2009 30 Year ROI (2010 Dollars) Annual ROI
1 Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) Private $189,300 $1,688,000 12.6%
2 California Institute of Technology (CalTech) Private $181,100 $1,644,000 12.6%
3 Harvard University Private $189,600 $1,631,000 12.5%
4 Harvey Mudd College Private $187,700 $1,627,000 12.5%
5 Dartmouth College Private $188,400 $1,587,000 12.4%
6 Stanford University Private $191,800 $1,565,000 12.3%
7 Princeton University Private $187,700 $1,517,000 12.3%
8 Yale University Private $194,200 $1,392,000 11.9%
9 University of Notre Dame Private $181,900 $1,384,000 12.1%
10 University of Pennsylvania Private $191,300 $1,361,000 11.8%
11 Duke University Private $187,600 $1,319,000 11.8%
12 Lehigh University Private $180,400 $1,308,000 11.9%
13 Union College, New York Private $186,500 $1,262,000 11.7%
14 Amherst College Private $188,200 $1,259,000 11.6%
15 Worcester Polytechnic Institute (WPI) Private $184,900 $1,224,000 11.6%
16 University of California, Berkeley Public (In-State) $118,900 $1,223,000 13.1%
17 Carnegie Mellon University (CMU) Private $190,600 $1,220,000 11.5%
18 Colgate University Private $187,700 $1,167,000 11.4%
19 Columbia University Private $192,200 $1,161,000 11.3%
20 Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute (RPI) Private $227,300 $1,158,000 10.8%

Bottom 20
833 University of Texas at Tyler Public (Out-of-State) $101,000 $75,300 6.3%
834 Clark Atlanta University (CAU) Private $130,800 $65,400 5.7%
835 North Carolina Central University Public (Out-of-State) $114,300 $65,100 5.9%
836 Montana State University - Billings Public (Out-of-State) $115,600 $64,500 5.9%
837 Norfolk State University Public (Out-of-State) $132,200 $63,900 5.7%
838 Morehead State University Public (Out-of-State) $99,830 $62,700 6%
839 St. Ambrose University Private $148,400 $61,000 5.5%
840 University of Arkansas - Little Rock (UALR) Public (In-State) $86,250 $48,300 5.9%
841 Northeastern State University Public (In-State) $55,670 $48,000 6.5%
842 Chicago State University (CSU) Public (In-State) $92,780 $44,700 5.7%
843 Cameron University Public (In-State) $66,500 $44,300 6.1%
844 University of Arkansas - Little Rock (UALR) Public (Out-of-State) $118,300 $41,600 5.4%
845 Chicago State University (CSU) Public (Out-of-State) $120,500 $41,000 5.3%
846 Northeastern State University Public (Out-of-State) $81,500 $40,200 5.7%
847 Campbell University Private $141,800 $40,100 5.2%
848 Cameron University Public (Out-of-State) $91,190 $39,300 5.6%
849 Davenport University Private $92,710 $34,100 5.4%
850 Black Hills State University Public (In-State) $67,020 $6,960 4.6%
851 Shaw University Private $98,730 $2,400 4.4%
852 Black Hills State University Public (Out-of-State) $86,240 $998 4.3%

Looking for the best annual percentage return on your investment, without regard to your 30 year total return?  These look like the 20 best:

31 Georgia Institute of Technology Public (In-State) $79,140 $1,111,000 14.20%
38 University of Virginia (UVA) Public (In-State) $74,410 $1,038,000 14.10%
77 Brigham Young University (BYU) Private $58,450 $797,000 14.10%
27 Colorado School of Mines Public (In-State) $95,740 $1,132,000 13.60%
51 College of William and Mary Public (In-State) $74,720 $895,000 13.60%
16 University of California, Berkeley Public (In-State) $118,900 $1,223,000 13.10%
47 University of California at Los Angeles (UCLA) Public (In-State) $94,100 $961,200 13.10%
58 University of Michigan Public (In-State) $84,690 $875,400 13.10%
62 Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University (Virginia Tech) Public (In-State) $83,270 $854,300 13.10%
112 University of Florida (UF) Public (In-State) $70,150 $696,700 13%
149 University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill (UNCH) Public (In-State) $61,830 $615,100 13%
64 California Polytechnic State University, San Luis Obispo (CalPoly) Public (In-State) $86,440 $844,000 12.90%
71 Texas A&M University Public (In-State) $88,540 $816,000 12.70%
1 Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) Private $189,300 $1,688,000 12.60%
2 California Institute of Technology (CalTech) Private $181,100 $1,644,000 12.60%
46 University of California, San Diego (UCSD) Public (In-State) $106,600 $966,900 12.60%
134 University of Delaware Public (In-State) $71,670 $650,600 12.60%
143 James Madison University (JMU) Public (In-State) $69,510 $627,400 12.60%
3 Harvard University Private $189,600 $1,631,000 12.50%
4 Harvey Mudd College Private $187,700 $1,627,000 12.50%

Best deal looks like BYU.  Fifth least expensive out of the 852 studied, but at 14.10% tied for second best annual return on investment.  If money is tight, go Cougars.

[ham]

All those studies are pretty abstract, and countered by others that say something different if not opposite.
The truth is the guy whose old man owns the company, or the guy with the right party card or affiliations will ALWAYS get the job.
http://www.insidehighered.com/views/2010/06/03/larson

Quote:...With millions more students attending college, it makes sense to ask whether their degrees will pay off.

First of all, it is debatable whether a majority of future job openings will require a college degree. ...The New York Times reports that, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, most job growth in the next decade will be in labor markets where a bachelor's degree is not necessary. Furthermore, the cost of attending college has risen dramatically in recent years. Conflicting claims about the economic value of a degree along with skyrocketing tuition raise a question about whether college is a good investment for all students, especially those low-income students who can least afford to spend money and years on a higher education venture that may not produce rewards.

Secondly, the issue of college payoff becomes even more complicated when we consider that many students who begin college will not complete degrees. While the U.S. leads the world in college attendance, it is ranked near the bottom in the number of students who actually graduate. In fact, college access, which is touted as a symbol of our meritocratic ideals, leads to a degree for only about half of all students who enroll. Completion rates are even lower for first-generation collegians and people of color. According to education researcher Peter Sacks, the chance that a low-income child will earn a bachelor's degree is no higher today than it was in 1970, a grave contradiction in the meritocratic narrative of the education gospel.

In fact, as the sociologist Annette Lareau has shown in Unequal Childhoods: Class, Race, and Family Life, the qualities that lead to academic success are not linked to college access, effort, or intelligence, but to accidents of birth. For the most part, the children of affluent parents attend the best colleges and get the best jobs. Opening the doors of higher education has not altered this basic arrangement. Still, the myth persists that, to get ahead in life, the first thing you ought to do is write a tuition check.

These days it is more likely that a student's first tuition bill will be paid with money from a loan. What looks like an investment in the future, however, can often turn into an economic disaster.

They prey on the rags-to-riches complex...spend $90.000...130.000...200.000 right now with us at the education cartel, then earn $1.000.000 over a lifetime...
Guess what?
The $90.000...130.000 or whatever are the only sure thing...the rest is speculation based on hypotheses or market values that will be completely different by next year.


http://www.nypost.com/seven/06282009/pos...176545.htm

Quote:A student who secures a degree is increasingly unlikely to make up its cost, despite higher pay -...-. Consider two childhood friends, Ernie and Bill. Hard workers with helpful families, each saves exactly $16,594 for college. Ernie doesn't get accepted to a school he likes. Instead, he starts work at 18 and invests his college savings in a mutual fund that tracks the broad stock market.

Throughout his life, he makes average yearly pay for a high school graduate with no college, starting at $15,901 after taxes and peaking at $32,538. Each month, he adds to his stock fund 5% of his after-tax income, close to the nation's current savings rate. It returns 8% a year, typical for stock investors.

Bill has a typical college experience. He gets into a public college and after two years transfers to a private one. He spends $49,286 on tuition and required fees, the average for such a track. I'm not counting room and board, since Bill must pay for his keep whether he goes to college or not. Bill gets average-size grants, adjusted for average probabilities of receiving them, and so pays $34,044 for college.

He leaves school with an average-size student loan and a good interest rate: $17,450 at 5%. The $16,594 he has saved for college, you see, is precisely enough to pay what his loans don't cover.

Bill will have higher pay than Ernie his whole life, starting at $23,505 after taxes and peaking at $56,808. Like Ernie, he sets aside 5%. At that rate, it will take him 12 years to pay off his loan. Debt-free at 34, he starts adding to the same index fund as Ernie, making bigger monthly contributions with his higher pay. But when the two reunite at 65 for a retirement party, Ernie will have grown his savings to nearly $1.3 million. Bill will have less than a third of that.

People should be very careful with beliefs invested in those sirens in the night promoting fast track gains: that is why DE is a great option.

Quote:rom the Wall Street Journal, 2008-Dec-5, by Eric Gibson

Quote:
We can now add colleges and universities to the list of victims of the financial crisis. The stock-market collapse has badly eroded endowments, forcing schools to suspend capital projects, freeze hiring, rethink need-blind financial-aid policies and cut budgets. The Journal reported this week that Harvard University's giant-killer endowment, which stood at $36.9 billion as of June 30, has lost 22% of its value in the months since and that the university's administration is planning for a 30% decline for the fiscal year ending next June. -...-
The soup-to-nuts cost (tuition, room and board, extras) of one year at a private college is already in the region of $50,000, bringing the cost of a bachelor's degree to close to a quarter of a million dollars. As one wag has observed, that's like buying a new BMW every year and driving it off a cliff.

Moreover, tuition increases have consistently outpaced inflation. Since 1992, inflation has averaged between 2.5% and 3% a year; annual tuition increases have often been as high as 6%. According to the Chronicle of Higher Education, the reason that tuition increases at private four-year institutions kept pace with inflation this year is not that these schools suddenly curbed their free-spending ways but that inflation itself jumped dramatically. The average tuition increase was 5.9%, while the Consumer Price Index rose 5.6% in the 12 months from July 2007.

In spite of this, universities are still crying poor. Surely beleaguered college presidents are already tapping their in-house experts in the economics departments to tell them how to live within their means. No? Then allow me to help. Having spent the fall visiting several colleges with a son who is applying for next year, I've been getting a tutorial in college costs. And what an education it has been.

Let's start with presidential salaries. In its latest survey, published last month, the Chronicle reports that compensation for private university presidents rose on average 6% in the past year, a figure that represents 50% more than the standard annual merit increase for private-sector employees. The total compensation (salary plus benefits) of three private university presidents for 2007, the most recent year for which data are available, was in the stratosphere: Columbia University's Lee C. Bollinger earned $1,411,894 and Northwestern University's Henry S. Bienen, $1,742,560; Suffolk University in Massachusetts paid David J. Sargent $2,800,461.

Then there's the cost of college life itself. I've been wide-eyed on some of my visits, struck by the extent to which being a student today resembles living at Versailles, where Louis XIV's every whim was so thoroughly accommodated that there was even a Superintendent of the King's Furniture. One college tour guide proudly informed us that upon arrival every freshman is issued a brand-new laptop. Even if the students already have one? Why, yes, the guide replied.

Then there's the food. I can't say we were deprived when I was an undergraduate 35 years ago. (For a time steak was served every Saturday night.) But compared with today's students we were like inmates of a gulag, having to survive on a single daily bowl of gruel. Nowadays, every taste and eating disorder is catered to -- Japanese, Mexican, vegan -- and, in many cases, 24/7.

Indeed "24/7" could be the motto of undergraduate life. Facilities like libraries and gyms are open around the clock. Computer services are available at all hours, too. One college we visited must keep its tech support team doped up on amphetamines. Accidentally dump a cup of coffee into your laptop? No problem! They'll have it back to you in full working order in a day -- something no private-sector IT department could afford to offer.

On every tour we took, guides proudly boasted about the wide selection of clubs at their respective institutions -- a number that almost everywhere runs into the hundreds. And they reassured us that if, after surveying these abundant offerings, a student finds some lack, he can start his own organization and the college will subsidize it -- no questions asked.

Of course, it isn't really the college subsidizing it. It's us, the parents. Until I started these tours, I used to assume that college kids tilted left politically because they were young and impressionable. Maybe, but it's also because they get introduced to the welfare state at a tender age and become addicted. The government (college) offers cradle-to-grave (matriculation-to-graduation) care and feeding, levying higher taxes (tuition) on the populace (parents) whenever the spirit moves them -- which is every year. Not even the actual government is that brazen.

Indeed, private higher education has it better than an actual welfare state. Politicians are answerable to the electorate. In theory their efforts to take a larger slice of your paycheck can be thwarted at the polls. Not private higher education. There's nothing to put a brake on their fiscal expansiveness. -...-

Could it be that, as families strangle with the new economic climate and reduced financial aid, some of these colleges will find themselves having to choose between cutting back to realistic levels -- trimming the presidents' paychecks and the students' imperial lifestyle and limiting tuition increases to only the rate of inflation, for example -- or being priced out of the market? One certainly hopes so.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig8/maloney8.html

Quote:Yet, if you insist on becoming a college man anyway, citing the salary discrepancies between the have degrees and the have not degrees, my advice to the young men who wrote to me, those holed up in college libraries clutching Mises and Rothbard to their furrowed brow, is to take stock of where you are and what college is really about. Think about what position you are in.

A recent blog post by Lew Rockwell sums up that position perfectly – "as I walked on a university campus this morning…the girl-boy ratio was overwhelmingly girl." Haven't you watched Animal House? What in God's name are you doing in the library? Who the hell goes to college to learn anything? Understood properly, America’s college system is not a haven of learning; it is a four-year party with the background noise provided by tenured hacks giving their interpretations of foolish utopian schemes culled from other long-dead hacks.

In college happy hour is every hour, so remember to ignore your professors and let your dog off the leash; it’s hunting season. You are there to network, drink, smoke, and build up the fond, blurry memories that will allow you in later years to watch a porn movie and reminisce about when you used to get up to such wondrous madness. Stop wasting valuable college time reading Mises and Hayek – they’ll be plenty of time for that later – and cease frittering away a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity.

I suppose the bit about living the porn star dream while attending B&M universities is on par with the bit about income.
Yes, there are studies published that -often in very a-specific terms- foresee an income of n thousands per year for graduates in the A, B or C field (subject to periodical change )...much like that cute new ad from a multi-millionaire media campaign of the new grow-me-hair, trim-my-waist or virility fix tonic, Barney lost 30kg in seven days and Beulah 28 eating all they wanted while sitting on the couch, but watch out for small print:"your results may vary".
If a study claims that your demographic group in your geographic area "typically" dines out once a week, it might just be you dined out three times last year and someone else dined out everyday.

[Mountain Man Mark]

ham Wrote:Then there's the cost of college life itself.

Then there's the food. I can't say we were deprived when I was an undergraduate 35 years ago. (For a time steak was served every Saturday night.)

I don't know about where you went to school 35 years ago, but at Western Michigan University in 1975-77 the food in the Valley III dorm cafeteria wasn't too bad, they would even cook a burger to order for you when the kitchen was open. The food then sure beats the over-priced fare offered at the half-dozen fast food restaurants in the student union at the college that I attend now.

At the college that I attend now, the cost of a resident credit hour is $120, and they have a generous selection of used books. It is a medium-sized urban college with a student body of 33,000, though most students live off-campus. They offer plenty of courses online too, I already have lots of experience with Blackboard in fact.

[WilliamW]

Winston Smith Wrote:Unfortunately it did not consider for-profit schools...

Seems like if the results had showed lower ROI for for-profits they would have been shouting it from the rooftops.  Since they won't mention them, stands to reason for-profits out-performed non-profits and government schools.  Would love to see a real study.

ham Wrote:The truth is the guy whose old man owns the company, or the guy with the right party card or affiliations will ALWAYS get the job.

Good point.  Does the study measure return on investment or return on connection, i.e., WHO'S YOUR DADDY?????  You don't get into a lot of those places without political or financial connections.  So grads with good connections make more money than shmoes like us?  No surprise there.

Likewise, some states (e.g., California) subsidize their public college tuition more than others.  The artificially lower tuition in turn artificially raises the percentage return on investment for the individual.  Again, would be nice to see a real study that compares apples to apples.

[ham]

Quote:ham Wrote:
Then there's the cost of college life itself.

Then there's the food. I can't say we were deprived when I was an undergraduate 35 years ago. (For a time steak was served every Saturday night.)


I don't know about where you went to school 35 years ago

Ham went to school nowhere...those were quotes from articles...

[CarrieAnn]

Hi Everyone-I'm a new poster here...interesting blogs. All I can add is I went to a well thought and very large state university for my bachelor's degree. Their idea of teaching undergrads was herding them into a large auditorium with 100 of their classmates and the professor would lecture from the stage. Any labs were taught by TAs who were quite often hung over. It was a complete waste of time. I ended up going to a licensed but non-accredited school 25 years later in a field that I was really interested in. That investment has paid for itself at least 100-fold. It gave me a new career and opened all sorts of doors. And the tuition was a fraction of what an accredited university teaching me similar subjects is. For me, this type of education was a great choice.

[ham]

(03-08-2011 02:29 AM)CarrieAnn Wrote:  Hi Everyone-I'm a new poster here...interesting blogs. All I can add is I went to a well thought and very large state university for my bachelor's degree. Their idea of teaching undergrads was herding them into a large auditorium with 100 of their classmates and the professor would lecture from the stage. Any labs were taught by TAs who were quite often hung over. It was a complete waste of time. I ended up going to a licensed but non-accredited school 25 years later in a field that I was really interested in. That investment has paid for itself at least 100-fold. It gave me a new career and opened all sorts of doors. And the tuition was a fraction of what an accredited university teaching me similar subjects is. For me, this type of education was a great choice.

big brother and his cohort of lying politicking lefties may brag until the cow come home about how their rotten pseudo-socialist social alchemy post WWII mode will finally get the pariah to get raptured into mid air to finally meet P.T. Barnum, J.P. Getty and the Rotschild gang for the final judgment of one's financial sins and merits...it isn't that way and by far so.

[Virtual Bison]

(03-08-2011 02:29 AM)CarrieAnn Wrote:  Hi Everyone-I'm a new poster here...interesting blogs. All I can add is I went to a well thought and very large state university for my bachelor's degree. Their idea of teaching undergrads was herding them into a large auditorium with 100 of their classmates and the professor would lecture from the stage. Any labs were taught by TAs who were quite often hung over. It was a complete waste of time. I ended up going to a licensed but non-accredited school 25 years later in a field that I was really interested in. That investment has paid for itself at least 100-fold. It gave me a new career and opened all sorts of doors. And the tuition was a fraction of what an accredited university teaching me similar subjects is. For me, this type of education was a great choice.

Thanks Carrie.

I had the benefit of both educational experiences and have two degrees.

Accredited, and in my case State education has its own merits and so does the "non-traditional" route.

I guess there are a lot of people who knock unaccredited schools but I believe there is a lot of prejudice out there.

(03-08-2011 08:35 PM)ham Wrote:  big brother and his cohort of lying politicking lefties may brag until the cow come home about how their rotten pseudo-socialist social alchemy post WWII mode will finally get the pariah to get raptured into mid air to finally meet P.T. Barnum, J.P. Getty and the Rotschild gang for the final judgment of one's financial sins and merits...it isn't that way and by far so.

PT Barnum was actually a brilliant showman.
I read a great deal about how back in the day there were great exhibitions and traveling shows.

You may not know this but Harry Houdini (whose real name was Weiss) was probibly the most intellegent promoter that ever lived. He actually had a fake who followed him and would demonstrate tricks that the public never saw. This poser had a phony name, something like Hindini or something else. Anyway Hindini would heckle Harry during his performances and invite the public to his shows. And there was this war between the two.

It actually turned out that this fake Houdini was Weiss's own brother and it was a gimmick to generate more interest in his shows.

I guess Houdini believed that any publicity is good publicity.

This may be why Charlie Sheen is now the hotest celebrity.

[Winston Smith]