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In Defense of Unaccredited Universities and Colleges - Virtual Bison - 12-28-2010
And no, I am not talking in defense of diploma mills here.
You may be wondering why I am posting a commentary with this title.
And lets face it, unaccredited institutions of higher learning get little respect these days.
We are constantly shown stories about how people who have “fraudulent” or “fake” degrees are being disciplined for one thing or another. Very often these are people in public sector jobs who are under fire for spending public money in pursuit of their education.
We are even seeing examples of states, such as Oregon which are attempting to make it a crime to claim education at such institutions on applications for employment (public or private), or resumes.
But I think its about time we all sit down and ask ourselves why this is?
When I talk about Unaccredited Universities, I am not referring to Diploma Mills, which are fake institutions which will sell degrees for money only and require little if any actual work. I would not myself “buy” a degree, nor would I advise others to do so.
Rather I would refer to institutions which, for one reason or other does not chose to be associated with accreditation bodies.
Can it really be said that unaccredited degrees are of any value? The answer is hard to say. For some, institutions which are not accredited do require considerable work to earn degrees. They may even be well recognized in certain fields. Some schools offer degrees in controversial or unproven fields of study such as herbal medicine. This does not mean that students who attend these schools are not actually working towards degrees.
We need to remember that Taliesin, the school and studio founded by Frank Lloyd Wright was not accredited. The same is true with a great many schools.
Many religious institutions shun accreditation due to religious reasons as well.
I believe that it is important for schools to maintain a spirit of independence and by avoiding accreditation many can pursue their own mission in their own way.
The lack of freedom and the enforced conformity which the accreditation cabal wants all students to follow can be harmful to academic freedom and individual liberty. We are seeing, through the many laws regulation academia, an increase in the suppression of freedom.
It is true that many people may misuse their freedom and apply for positions they are not qualified for. But should this be the responsibility of the state to determine who is qualified for a particular job, or should it be with the employer.
I think many should be reminded that it was once possible for an individual to become a lawyer without attending law school. Abraham Lincoln never had a Doctor of Jurisprudence, nor did Clarence Darrow or many other lawyers. In fact its still possible today to take the Bar exam in California without having attended law school.
So why do people attend non-traditional and non-accredited schools?
The reasons are many but here are a few:
1 Cost: Cost is less for a lot of students, since accreditation requires considerable overhead to maintain standards.
2 Convince: Many non-accredited universities operate Distance Learning programs which allow students to study on their own time and at their own pace.
3 Programs available: Many controversial programs are offered in unaccredited programs which could not otherwise be offered. Herbal medicine is just one example.
4 Liberal admission standards. Consider that many students, particularly those outside of the US are unable to be admitted in local schools and cannot get entry visas into the United States, non-traditional schools are ofter what is needed.
I can continue but this is a short list of why unaccredited institutions are really needed.
RE: In Defense of Unaccredited Universities and Colleges - WilliamW - 12-28-2010
(12-28-2010, 10:23 AM)Virtual Bison Wrote: And no, I am not talking in defense of diploma mills here.
Why not? First, with regard to "diploma mills," who cares if people sell fake degrees? If the buyer knows it's fake then he's getting what he paid for, so who is harmed? But if a buyer is willing to pay good money for a "worthless" piece of paper, then obviously the paper is not worthless at all. What then creates the value? The buyer thinks he can fool ignorant people into believing it represents actual academic achievement. He's counting on nobody checking, or not checking in more than a perfunctory manner.
If it's really all that important that your employees or contractors have "real" degrees, shouldn't you then undertake the relatively modest effort required to verify the degree before hiring them? If you don't, who is to blame?
The reason you see so many public sector employees taking heat is because so many public sector administrators are fucking incompetent. They blame it on the union, but who negotiated the union contract?
The typical sophist argument is that we can't have engineers and doctors running around building bridges and treating patients with fake degrees. But engineers and doctors are licensed. In fact engineers and doctors with real degrees can't run around doing such things either--unless they meet strict licensing requirements, which invariably include, among other things, having verified degrees.
Second, accredited colleges have no trademark or other exclusive right to use the term "degree." A "degree" can be anything anyone decides it to be. If somebody wants to award people "degrees" for life experience, who cares? As long as the buyer knows his "degree" has no academic significance, who is harmed?
Turning then to "accreditation," many uninformed people assume that the term equates to some sort of quality standard or objective measure of learning. In fact it currently means no such thing, unless you equate the ethereal "standards" articulated in the accreditors' self-serving public pronouncements with anything of substance.
You can't describe an unaccredited school as "substandard" when the accredited schools have no real, quantifiable academic standards against which they are measured. Accreditation is just a qualifier for government subsidies and a nose ring for school admins to be led around by the government to insure that curricula meet the perverted socialist dogma requirements.
So if a vendor sells a very expensive "accredited" degree that he represents (with a straight face) has some value, but which in fact represents nothing measurable and in the current economy isn't even likely to land the holder gainful employment, who is the bigger fraud? At least the milled degree buyer knows he's getting hot air, and at pennies on the dollar.
In fact the accreditation scam is in the nature of a "cartel" or as Dr. Glen S. McGhee describes it, a "guild." The vendors organize to limit competition and keep prices high. The government is both a member (by extracting tax money to finance government schools) and an enforcer (by prosecuting competitors for trumped up "crimes").
Accreditation is essentially the "buy in" to be allowed to play the game. Have a spare ten million bucks, ten years and willing to risk it on 50-50 odds? You're in! Are people playing the game who didn't buy in? Diploma mills!!! Go directly to jail!!!!
Even innovators among the cartel who break the rules (e.g., UoPhx) are threatened by the cartel and its enforcers. Year 'round classes instead of weeks and months off for vacations? Classrooms near the freeway where students can actually reach them after work, instead of back up in the woods among the evergreens? "We've got to do something about those dastardly for-profits!"
If and when accreditation becomes an objective measure of the quality and quantity of education provided, then I'll salute. Until then, only with the middle digit.
RE: In Defense of Unaccredited Universities and Colleges - ham - 12-28-2010
The basic problem is that the same rhetoric deployed to defend real schools is deployed splitting hairs in order to make degree mills seem legitimate.
RE: In Defense of Unaccredited Universities and Colleges - BROWN TEAL - 12-29-2010
John Kersey, a fellow Graduate, makes some interesting points here:
http://www.libertarian.co.uk/lapubs/educn/educn035.htm
RE: In Defense of Unaccredited Universities and Colleges - Virtual Bison - 12-29-2010
(12-28-2010, 06:32 PM)WilliamW Wrote:(12-28-2010, 10:23 AM)Virtual Bison Wrote: And no, I am not talking in defense of diploma mills here.
Why not? First, with regard to "diploma mills," who cares if people sell fake degrees? If the buyer knows it's fake then he's getting what he paid for, so who is harmed? But if a buyer is willing to pay good money for a "worthless" piece of paper, then obviously the paper is not worthless at all. What then creates the value? The buyer thinks he can fool ignorant people into believing it represents actual academic achievement. He's counting on nobody checking, or not checking in more than a perfunctory manner.
If it's really all that important that your employees or contractors have "real" degrees, shouldn't you then undertake the relatively modest effort required to verify the degree before hiring them? If you don't, who is to blame?
The reason you see so many public sector employees taking heat is because so many public sector administrators are fucking incompetent. They blame it on the union, but who negotiated the union contract?
The typical sophist argument is that we can't have engineers and doctors running around building bridges and treating patients with fake degrees. But engineers and doctors are licensed. In fact engineers and doctors with real degrees can't run around doing such things either--unless they meet strict licensing requirements, which invariably include, among other things, having verified degrees.
Second, accredited colleges have no trademark or other exclusive right to use the term "degree." A "degree" can be anything anyone decides it to be. If somebody wants to award people "degrees" for life experience, who cares? As long as the buyer knows his "degree" has no academic significance, who is harmed?
Turning then to "accreditation," many uninformed people assume that the term equates to some sort of quality standard or objective measure of learning. In fact it currently means no such thing, unless you equate the ethereal "standards" articulated in the accreditors' self-serving public pronouncements with anything of substance.
You can't describe an unaccredited school as "substandard" when the accredited schools have no real, quantifiable academic standards against which they are measured. Accreditation is just a qualifier for government subsidies and a nose ring for school admins to be led around by the government to insure that curricula meet the perverted socialist dogma requirements.
So if a vendor sells a very expensive "accredited" degree that he represents (with a straight face) has some value, but which in fact represents nothing measurable and in the current economy isn't even likely to land the holder gainful employment, who is the bigger fraud? At least the milled degree buyer knows he's getting hot air, and at pennies on the dollar.
In fact the accreditation scam is in the nature of a "cartel" or as Dr. Glen S. McGhee describes it, a "guild." The vendors organize to limit competition and keep prices high. The government is both a member (by extracting tax money to finance government schools) and an enforcer (by prosecuting competitors for trumped up "crimes").
Accreditation is essentially the "buy in" to be allowed to play the game. Have a spare ten million bucks, ten years and willing to risk it on 50-50 odds? You're in! Are people playing the game who didn't buy in? Diploma mills!!! Go directly to jail!!!!
Even innovators among the cartel who break the rules (e.g., UoPhx) are threatened by the cartel and its enforcers. Year 'round classes instead of weeks and months off for vacations? Classrooms near the freeway where students can actually reach them after work, instead of back up in the woods among the evergreens? "We've got to do something about those dastardly for-profits!"
If and when accreditation becomes an objective measure of the quality and quantity of education provided, then I'll salute. Until then, only with the middle digit.
Some good points.
I qualified that statement because I believe that rather than encouraging schools to merely "sell" degrees for nothing other than money, it might be better to re-examine qualifications for professional liscenses. For instance, why is it that only California allows someone without a JD to take the Bar Exam? Did you know that in many states, Vermont for instance you do not need a degree in Engineering to take the PE Exam?
I believe in decriminalizing these so called "diploma mills," yes. Because if someone wants to pay for a degree that was not earned than thats their business. And if an employer is too lazy not to set standards than that is their problem.
But for the purpose of my argument I was referring to the whole accreditation mafia and how they are surpressing individual freedoms.
(12-28-2010, 08:40 PM)ham Wrote: The basic problem is that the same rhetoric deployed to defend real schools is deployed splitting hairs in order to make degree mills seem legitimate.Which is why employers and professional organizations need to be vigilant in their hiring or approval practices. I happen to think that use of examinations to screen candidates is a good idea. And lets face it, any bozo can claim a college education and make up their credentials. Suppose I told you I graduated from the U or Timbuctu and showed you a diploma. Would you hire me without checking references or maybe asking me to do some basic tasks that the job would require?
I happen to work in the field of IT and no employer will hire someone just because they show off some sheepskin. What is more important to the people in my field is how current I am and what do I really know.
re: BROWN TEAL
This article states makes a hell of a lot of sense. Just one sentence made me laugh:
Quote:The American writer on distance education John Bear has written, “I have been suggesting for years that in a rational world, any degree would be evaluated based only on the work done to earn it, and the credentials of the person or people who approve and stand behind it.”4
RE: In Defense of Unaccredited Universities and Colleges - ham - 12-29-2010
Quote:I believe in decriminalizing these so called "diploma mills," yes. Because if someone wants to pay for a degree that was not earned than thats their business. And if an employer is too lazy not to set standards than that is their problem.
I think they should be obliged to disclose the unaccredited nature of their degree, whether they bought it on ebay or printed it themselves.
Quote:I happen to work in the field of IT and no employer will hire someone just because they show off some sheepskin. What is more important to the people in my field is how current I am and what do I really know.
In most case it may not be practical...in order to check their driving license, let's check how they drive...
Quote:he American writer on distance education John Bear has written
Mister Millard Fillmore comes handy at times, eh?
Again: if you think you are so good, don't bother with fake degrees: do your research and self-publish it. You may hire a REAL adviser on your own. If you feel you NEED letters after your name, you are under peer pressure...and if you cave in by acquiring a fake or dodgy degree, it just doesn't make ANY sense. Come on! Many accredited institutions leave lots to be desired...go figure dodgy schools in someone's basement...you just have no idea whether there is any faculty at all...oh, yea, they printed a list...PFFT! It's like the clown online posting a James Dean pic as his own...WTF would you know?
And let's be clear: the majority of people with dodgy degrees bought them as a shortcut towards effortless pay increases or something. Period. Freedom in academia my a$$. That's how the whole argument gets discredited...when the dust settles, you only had streetwise bozos wanting to pull a fast one, research my a$$.
RE: In Defense of Unaccredited Universities and Colleges - BROWN TEAL - 12-30-2010
(12-29-2010, 02:07 PM)ham Wrote: Again: if you think you are so good, don't bother with fake degrees: do your research and self-publish it. You may hire a REAL adviser on your own. If you feel you NEED letters after your name, you are under peer pressure...and if you cave in by acquiring a fake or dodgy degree, it just doesn't make ANY sense. Come on! Many accredited institutions leave lots to be desired...go figure dodgy schools in someone's basement...you just have no idea whether there is any faculty at all...oh, yea, they printed a list...PFFT! It's like the clown online posting a James Dean pic as his own...WTF would you know? And let's be clear: the majority of people with dodgy degrees bought them as a shortcut towards effortless pay increases or something. Period. Freedom in academia my a$$. That's how the whole argument gets discredited...when the dust settles, you only had streetwise bozos wanting to pull a fast one, research my a$$.
Quite obviously Hamster you do not understand the difference between Private Universities - of which there are over 5,000 in the world - and diploma mills!
RE: In Defense of Unaccredited Universities and Colleges - Virtual Bison - 12-30-2010
(12-29-2010, 02:07 PM)ham Wrote:I am not entirely supportive of "Diploma Mills" either but I just happen to think that there are fine lines between what constitutes a diploma mill and something legitimate. University of Pheonix is currently under fire from some sources for its unorthodox recruiting and teaching methods. I have heard some people describe UoP as a Mill as well. Then again, there are some purists who would tell you that any distance learning program is a diploma mill.Quote:I believe in decriminalizing these so called "diploma mills," yes. Because if someone wants to pay for a degree that was not earned than thats their business. And if an employer is too lazy not to set standards than that is their problem.
I think they should be obliged to disclose the unaccredited nature of their degree, whether they bought it on ebay or printed it themselves.
Quote:I happen to work in the field of IT and no employer will hire someone just because they show off some sheepskin. What is more important to the people in my field is how current I am and what do I really know.
In most case it may not be practical...in order to check their driving license, let's check how they drive...
Quote:he American writer on distance education John Bear has written
Mister Millard Fillmore comes handy at times, eh?
Again: if you think you are so good, don't bother with fake degrees: do your research and self-publish it. You may hire a REAL adviser on your own. If you feel you NEED letters after your name, you are under peer pressure...and if you cave in by acquiring a fake or dodgy degree, it just doesn't make ANY sense. Come on! Many accredited institutions leave lots to be desired...go figure dodgy schools in someone's basement...you just have no idea whether there is any faculty at all...oh, yea, they printed a list...PFFT! It's like the clown online posting a James Dean pic as his own...WTF would you know?
And let's be clear: the majority of people with dodgy degrees bought them as a shortcut towards effortless pay increases or something. Period. Freedom in academia my a$$. That's how the whole argument gets discredited...when the dust settles, you only had streetwise bozos wanting to pull a fast one, research my a$$.
I am suspicious of anyone who trys to put down any school because it does not conform to their ideals. I would ask just who is watching the watchers?
(12-30-2010, 09:39 AM)BROWN TEAL Wrote: Quite obviously Hamster you do not understand the difference between Private Universities - of which there are over 5,000 in the world - and diploma mills!And again there are many who are unable to distinguish.
RE: In Defense of Unaccredited Universities and Colleges - ham - 12-30-2010
Quote:Quite obviously Hamster you do not understand the difference between Private Universities - of which there are over 5,000 in the world - and diploma mills!
So degree mills are "just private universities"? PFFT!
You forgot the punchline every university starts out unaccredited...
Come on...the lazy trooper/policeman wanting a pay increase quick&easy...the sleazy politician wanting letters after her name...the braggart who wants to be listed as an academic...people who (and they say it themselves) want a degree really fast and with as less work as possible...come on! The definition of "independent research" in your book, eh? Are THOSE the champions of freedom in academia?! Please...
I do not feel the need to fight for THEIR fast&effortless pay increase, or their vanity.
Why would I?
They are probably laughing all the way at poor clueless me.
I won't say a word about degree millsters because they are just vendors...hell, if there is a need for "big penis badges", someone is going to print those for sale...
I have nothing against vanity, either.
It's like the man who got past his fifth lifting...whatever floats his boat.
But don't try to bullsh.t me with freedom in academia tirades.
RE: In Defense of Unaccredited Universities and Colleges - BROWN TEAL - 12-30-2010
(12-30-2010, 05:18 PM)ham Wrote: So degree mills are "just private universities"? PFFT!
You forgot the punchline every university starts out unnaccredited...
Come on...the lazy trooper/policeman wanting a pay increase quick&easy...the sleazy politician wanting letters after her name...the braggart who wants to be listed as an academic...people who (and they say it themselves) want a degree really fast and with as less work as possible...come on! The definition of "independent research" in your book, eh? Are THOSE the champions of freedom in academia?! Please...
I do not feel the need to fight for THEIR fast&effortless pay increase, or their vanity.
Why would I?
They are probably laughing all the way at poor clueless me.
I won't say a word about degree millsters because they are just vendors...hell, if there is a need for "big penis badges", someone is going to print those for sale...
I have nothing against vanity, either.
It's like the man who got past his fifth lifting...whatever floats his boat.
But don't try to bullsh.t me with freedom in academia tirades.
Sadly you sound like RCD, Gus, G-G & Puffman all rolled into one and reminds me of the infamous statement by Puffman that said - "Anyone who believes that a degree from a mill degree works are the same people that believe penis enlargement pills work." I've always wondered how he knew that!
Sadly, you sound like a pathetic version of RCD, Gus, G-G & Puffman all rolled into one and reminds me of the infamous statement by Puffman that said - "Anyone who believes that a degree from a mill degree works are the same people that believe penis enlargement pills work."
I've always wondered how he knew that!